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It's not a straight forward question. Like at all. It's rhetorical. It's hypothetical. It's fantasy.

It's not rhetorical or hypothetical at all. You seem to be of the opinion that illegals should be permitted to stay in the US. So, is there a number of illegals that you feel would be the maximum that US society can handle, or do you believe that no amount is too many?

Thank-you for link, it was very informative. I learned that the number of apprehensions at the northern and southern borders varies between around 300,000 and 1.2 million depending on the year with 98% of those coming from the south-west border region. That's a lot of people and it's a big problem that isn't going away.

Interestingly, a search on that site for 'cost of unauthorized immigration' returns no relevant data. Not sure that organisation is as unbiased as you think.

The cost to the US economy is estimated to be north of $100 billion a year. That's with an estimated 10 to 11 million illegal residents. With somewhere between 300,000 and 1.2 million additional illegals entering every year until it is stopped, at what point does the cost become too high?

Being from a poor country does not give you the 'right' to pick another one and just waltz in. Asylum status is for legitimate refugees. Deciding that poor people are refugees means you no longer have a border and that anyone who was born in a country that isn't Australia, Canada, Japan, in Europe, in Scandinavia or an oil rich Arab state, has a right to move to your country. That's several billion people. Is that too many for you?

I'm not trying to be facetious or sarcastic, I'm just trying to have an honest conversation with you. It's easy to point the finger at something that sounds mean and uncaring but reality itself is mean an uncaring. I don't lack compassion but I do recognize the harsh realities of the world. The reality is that you can't help everyone, money doesn't grow on trees and illegal immigration has nothing but negative consequences for legal residents be them immigrants or native born.

We don't tolerate illegal migration here and take strict action against it. That's one reason why we have all of the stuff you wish you had in your country.
 
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Phew, thank GOD someone else on this thread was totally right "I do not believe they are disease ridden. " yup, shes right - there is nothing to worry about, not many of them are sick or anything, we really do need to do our research as she suggested...



"Border Patrol’s holding facilities in the Del Rio and El Paso sectors, or regions, are inundated with sick detainees, as well as sick agents.
Jon Anfinsen is a National Border Patrol Council vice president and based in Del Rio, which includes Eagle Pass, where most Congolese are arriving. Anfinsen represents approximately 1,000 agents who are based out of 10 regional holding stations. Anfinsen has been an agent 12 years and said the number of people in custody and subsequent illnesses among that population is “unprecedented.”
“Scabies, chickenpox — we had one case of the mumps here in Uvalde. I wanna say we had measles — plenty of the flu, plenty of colds, body lice, just assorted. And some of these things, they spread like wildfires when you get into a cramped holding cell. It happens,” Anfinsen said.

 
Phew, thank GOD someone else on this thread was totally right "I do not believe they are disease ridden. " yup, shes right - there is nothing to worry about, not many of them are sick or anything, we really do need to do our research as she suggested...



"Border Patrol’s holding facilities in the Del Rio and El Paso sectors, or regions, are inundated with sick detainees, as well as sick agents.
Jon Anfinsen is a National Border Patrol Council vice president and based in Del Rio, which includes Eagle Pass, where most Congolese are arriving. Anfinsen represents approximately 1,000 agents who are based out of 10 regional holding stations. Anfinsen has been an agent 12 years and said the number of people in custody and subsequent illnesses among that population is “unprecedented.”
“Scabies, chickenpox — we had one case of the mumps here in Uvalde. I wanna say we had measles — plenty of the flu, plenty of colds, body lice, just assorted. And some of these things, they spread like wildfires when you get into a cramped holding cell. It happens,” Anfinsen said.

You mean someone like me that lived in El Paso and dealt with actually knew what the fuck they were talking about?! Imagine that :meh:
 
America is a nation of immigrants. That is not a cliché but a simple fact. Almost all Americans today either immigrated themselves or descended from immigrants, whether from England and Germany in the colonial era, Ireland, Eastern Europe, and Scandinavia in the 19th and early 20th centuries, or Latin America and Asia in more recent decades. Today one out of every four people residing in the United States are either first- or second-generation immigrants. Immigration has enriched the United States throughout its history, economically as well as culturally and socially.

  • Immigrants boost America’s economic growth and raise the general productivity of American workers by providing much-needed skills. Immigrant workers allow important sectors of the economy to expand, attracting investment and creating employment opportunities for native-born Americans. A recent study by the International Monetary Fund concluded, “Immigration significantly increases GDP per capita in advanced economies.”
  • Immigrants fuel entrepreneurship. Immigrants are more likely to start a business than native-born Americans, whether it’s a corner shop or high-tech startup. Among startup companies that were valued at more than $1 billion in 2016, half were founded by immigrants. Among Fortune 500 companies, 40 percent were founded by immigrants or their children.
  • Immigrants generate new products, ideas, and innovation. Immigrants make up 17 percent of the US workforce, while filing one-third of the patents and accounting for more than one-third of US workers with a PhD in one of the STEM subjects of science, technology, engineering, and math. One study found, “More than half of the high-skilled technology workers and entrepreneurs in Silicon Valley are foreign born.”
  • Without immigrants and their children, the United States would soon begin to experience demographic decline. The number of US-born workers with US-born parents is already declining, and will shrink by eight million from 2015 to 2035. Immigrants extend the sustainability of federal retirement programs by slowing the rise in the ratio of retirees to workers. Without a growing workforce, the US economy would begin to lose its dynamism and leadership role in the global economy.
  • Three-quarters of immigrants in the United States reside here legally. The number of unauthorized immigrants has stabilized in recent years at 11 to 12 million. Most illegal immigrants arriving today enter the country legally but then overstay their visas; thus, a wall on the US-Mexican border will not stop most illegal immigration. The most cost-effective policy for reducing illegal immigration remains the expansion of opportunities for legal entry and work.

1. Myth: America is being flooded with mass immigration.

Reality: The rate of US immigration today is well below its historical average and below that of many other advanced nations.

  • According to the Census Bureau, the number of foreign-born residents of the United States was 43.7 million in 2016, or 13.5 percent of the total US population. Although growing in recent decades, the immigrant share of the US population is still below its peak of nearly 15 percent in 1910. In many other developed nations, such as Canada and Australia, the foreign-born are a much higher share of the population than in the United States.
  • More importantly, the rate of net migration to the United States today is far below what it has been in previous historical periods. The United States accepts about 1.1 million permanent legal immigrants per year, which is a high number in nominal terms but is historically modest as a share of the US population. The current annual US net migration rate (both legal and illegal, minus emigration), is 3.3 per 1,000 US residents. That is less than half of the US migration rate in the peak years of the Great Atlantic Migration from 1880 to 1910 and below the historical US average since 1820 of 4.3 per 1,000.
2. Myth: Immigrants depress wages and take jobs from Americans.

Reality: There is no evidence that immigrants cause higher unemployment among Americans or depress average wages.

  • Immigrants typically complement American workers rather than compete directly with them for jobs. As immigrants supply labor, they also increase demand for housing and other goods and services, creating employment opportunities for native-born workers. This is why, over time, there is no correlation between immigration and the general unemployment rate. In fact, the number of jobs and the size of the workforce tend to grow together.
  • For those same reasons, empirical studies have found that immigration has only a small and generally positive impact on average wages. A study cited in the 2017 National Academy of Sciences report on the economic consequences of immigration found that the only native demographic group negatively impacted is adults without a high school diploma. The wage impact on this group is small, in the range of 1 to 2 percent, and the size of this group has declined to less than 10 percent of the working-age population. Evidence also shows that as immigrants move in, native-born Americans tend to stay in school longer and upgrade their education, raising their productivity and wages. For more than 90 percent of American workers, immigration either raises wages or has no impact.
3. Myth: Immigrants increase the danger of crime and terrorism.

Reality: Immigrants are less likely to commit crimes or to be incarcerated than native-born Americans. The risks from immigrant terrorism are relatively low compared to other dangers.

  • Immigrants are less prone to crime for a number of reasons. After surveying the available evidence, a major 2015 study on immigrant integration by the National Academy of Sciences concluded, “Far from immigration increasing crime rates, studies demonstrate that immigrants and immigration are associated inversely with crime. Immigrants are less likely than the native born to commit crimes, and neighborhoods with greater concentrations of immigrants have much lower rates of crime and violence than comparable nonimmigrant neighborhoods.”
  • Foreign-born terrorists have committed deadly attacks on US soil, most tragically on September 11, 2001. But the terrorists responsible for the deaths that day were temporary visitors in the United States on nonimmigrant tourist and student visas. Terrorist acts by permanent immigrants are much less of a theat. According to research by Alex Nowrasteh of the Cato Institute, from 1975 to 2017, “. . . the chance of being murdered in a terrorist attack committed by a chain immigrant or a diversity visa recipient was about 1 in 723 million per year,” a risk far lower than death by domestic homicide.
4. Myth: Immigrants impose a fiscal burden on US taxpayers.

Reality: Most immigrants pay more in taxes over their lifetimes than they consume in government benefits.

  • Immigrants on average are net contributors to government. Immigrants tend to produce more of a fiscal surplus, or less of a deficit, than similarly educated native-born Americans because they are eligible for fewer government benefit programs. The children of immigrants are also more beneficial for government budgets than the children of native-born Americans because they tend to achieve higher levels of education, earnings, and tax paying.
  • Higher-skilled immigrants are especially beneficial to government finances. According to the 2017 National Academy of Sciences report, an immigrant arriving in the United States at age 25 with a four-year college degree will, over his or her lifetime, pay $514,000 more in taxes than government services consumed (at net present value). An immigrant with an advanced degree will pay a surplus of almost $1 million. Immigrants without a high school diploma impose a lifetime cost on government of $109,000, but the cost is much smaller than that of a native-born adult without a high school diploma.
5. Myth: Immigrants are no longer assimilating into American culture.

Reality: As with immigrant waves before them, today’s immigrants and their children are learning English and assimilating into American society.

  • Immigrants are acquiring proficiency in English at comparable rates to immigrants in the past. Second- and third-generation immigrants are overwhelmingly fluent in English. As the 2015 National Academy of Sciences report concluded, “Today’s immigrants are learning English at the same rate or faster than earlier immigrant waves.”
  • In other important ways, immigrants are adapting to and integrating into American society. The 2015 National Academy of Sciences report also found that immigrants are more optimistic than native-born Americans about achieving the American Dream. Rates of intermarriage between native-born Americans and immigrants have been rising, including among ethnic and racial minorities.

Yeah, so every leg you stand on is bullshit. Are you shocked? I'm not. Immigration is important to our economy and always has been and will continue to be. A wall is not going to stop people illegally entering the country and it is a shameful waste of money. Neither is being unnecessarily cruel or separating families. Because it's such a hot spot for political posturing, it's left open like an angry wound like most of our soap box issues because playing the game and getting the votes is more important than logically and humanely fixing a problem that is fixable.
 
Three-quarters of immigrants in the United States reside here legally. The number of unauthorized immigrants has stabilized in recent years at 11 to 12 million. Most illegal immigrants arriving today enter the country legally but then overstay their visas; thus, a wall on the US-Mexican border will not stop most illegal immigration. The most cost-effective policy for reducing illegal immigration remains the expansion of opportunities for legal entry and work.
 
Three-quarters of immigrants in the United States reside here legally. The number of unauthorized immigrants has stabilized in recent years at 11 to 12 million. Most illegal immigrants arriving today enter the country legally but then overstay their visas; thus, a wall on the US-Mexican border will not stop most illegal immigration. The most cost-effective policy for reducing illegal immigration remains the expansion of opportunities for legal entry and work.
Legally they pay taxes and contribute...
 
America is a nation of immigrants. That is not a cliché but a simple fact. Almost all Americans today either immigrated themselves or descended from immigrants, whether from England and Germany in the colonial era, Ireland, Eastern Europe, and Scandinavia in the 19th and early 20th centuries, or Latin America and Asia in more recent decades. Today one out of every four people residing in the United States are either first- or second-generation immigrants. Immigration has enriched the United States throughout its history, economically as well as culturally and socially.



Yeah, so every leg you stand on is bullshit. Are you shocked? I'm not. Immigration is important to our economy and always has been and will continue to be. A wall is not going to stop people illegally entering the country and it is a shameful waste of money. Neither is being unnecessarily cruel or separating families. Because it's such a hot spot for political posturing, it's left open like an angry wound like most of our soap box issues because playing the game and getting the votes is more important than logically and humanely fixing a problem that is fixable.

You left off number 6.

6. Myth: Legal immigration is the same thing as illegal immigration.

Reality: They are two totally different things that leftists like to conflate.
 
You left off number 6.

6. Myth: Legal immigration is the same thing as illegal immigration.

Reality: They are two totally different things that leftists like to conflate.

HA, that's fucking cute. I can't with you. You are just making shit up now and completely ignoring all the beautiful and abundant truth I've laid down for you by countering with nonsense. And you wonder why I just poke at you with sticks instead of trying to "debate." It's less of a waste of my time and a hell of a lot more fun.

Research reviewed by the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office indicates that between 50 percent and 75 percent of unauthorized immigrants pay federal, state, and local taxes. Illegal immigrants are estimated to pay in about $7 billion per year into Social Security.

So, really, a lot of illegal immigrants actually pay taxes, unlike your president. I mean, when he admitted heartily not paying taxes, it was applause all around for "being smart" and if you could get away with it like most all of the rich assholes in this country, you totally would too.
 
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And this is $100 billion dollar question. So what say you, lefties? How many is enough? Enough that the USA turns into the same 3rd world shit that these people are leaving?

Refusing to differentiate between genuine refugees and economic migrants amounts to an open border policy. An open border policy will destroy your country.

Still waiting for someone to point to a country anywhere on Earth were mass 3rd world migration has had any benefit for the host country and it's native inhabitants.

Just name one. You can't can you?
I suppose I can agree with one thing that you've said. An open border will destroy your country. Proven true for Turtle Island, Australia, South Africa, Canada and many other Aborigine Peoples. Except they weren't invaded by "3rd world" countries. I'm with @Knox on this whole issue and I'll just leave it at that. Thank you Knox for trying to educate people. It doesn't always work, but hey, we all have opinions even if they are distorted. And sick. For a bunch of people that hate the abuse of a child and are willing to open their homes to said children, it's pretty clear that not all children matter to them. Edit: I forgot about you @DIAFplease Thank you.
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we get that that is you guys points... now come down to the real world and explain how we as a single country do that when we don't have the funds or people to do it for people that are from and live in the US? that was the discussion we were having... you dont think all of us are for everyone living an amazing life??
[/QUOTE]
Ummm....have billionaires pay the same tax rate as myself?
 
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immigrants pay federal, state, and local taxes. Illegal immigrants are estimated to pay in about $7 billion per year into Social Security
Big deal, the net cost is upwards of $150 billion. Oh, so make that upwards of $143 billion. Go ahead and play your stupid race games. It has to do with security, not melanin. You know this, you just CHOOSE to reject it because it doesn't sound quite as titillating as "You're a RACIST!" You're "beautiful and abundant truth" is nothing more than skewed partisan bullshit, but hey, embrace that shit while the adults figure out how to get it all paid for without China calling in it's chits.
 
I know what quotation marks mean, LMFAO. YOUR "beautiful and abundant truth" is very different between the contraction for YOU ARE "beautiful and abundant truth", thus I took it as a compliment. Now my feelings are hurt.:(
You got me, stoopid phone must have auto-corrected itself. I didn't mean to imply you wouldn't know what quotation marks are, sorry about that. I didn't intend hurt feelings on your part either, just trying make sure that my post was understood. ;)
 
You got me, stoopid phone must have auto-corrected itself. I didn't mean to imply you wouldn't know what quotation marks are, sorry about that. I didn't intend hurt feelings on your part either, just trying make sure that my post was understood. ;)
Totally fine. Tbh, the issue of immigration is quite touchy for a large amount of Native Americans, especially when it concerns "Mexican" immigrants because those are our brothers and sisters that got pushed behind a European man-made line. I get where everyone else is coming from. The cost. It can't truly be because of safety because it has already been established that they are actually LESS likely to commit crimes than born and raised Americans. That's rhetoric. But when it comes to the actual cost of immigration, documented or otherwise, we SHOULD have enough money to take care of veterans, the homeless, AND foot the bill for making immigration and asylum seekers possible. Once again, if billionaires paid the same tax rate as we do, we could pay for all and then some. For people who work their asses off everyday as I do and have to be super thrifty in order to get by, I am very aware who to direct this frustration towards.
 
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Totally fine. Tbh, the issue of immigration is quite touchy for a large amount of Native Americans, especially when it concerns "Mexican" immigrants because those are our brothers and sisters that got pushed behind a European man-made line. I get where everyone else is coming from. The cost. It can't truly be because of safety because it has already been established that they are actually LESS likely to commit crimes than born and raised Americans. That's rhetoric. But when it comes to the actual cost of immigration, documented or otherwise, we SHOULD have enough money to take care of veterans, the homeless, AND foot the bill for making immigration and asylum seekers possible. Once again, if billionaires paid the same tax rate as we do, we could pay for all and then some. For people who work their asses off everyday as I do and have to be super thrifty in order to get by, I am very aware who to direct this frustration towards.
My biggest concern is and always has been that with porous border those that want to do harm can and WILL get in. All of this political in-fighting is only ending up making that easier to accomplish. Let's face it, Africa is a powder keg ready to blow, a lot of them do not care for America/Americans and we do not need to make it easier to cause harm. They are now seeing hundreds of Africans at the border, from the Congo, Nigeria, Burkina Faso and others. (I pointed this possibility out over a year ago, on a now deleted thread, and I got jeered at and told I was full of crap over it and yet now, here it is happening) I had to emigrate/immigrate legally when my family moved to Africa and then back again, all I ask is that people coming here respect the sovereignty of my country as I respected other countries in my travels. I do not care one iota about the color of someone's skin, what religion they practise or any of the other bunk that Conservatives get accused of. I never have. And your point about Native Americans/Mexicans is not lost on me and needs to be looked into on a much larger scale in my opinion. All I ask is that people play by the rules and don't take advantage of us. I don't know why that seems to some to be asking too much?
 
Totally fine. Tbh, the issue of immigration is quite touchy for a large amount of Native Americans, especially when it concerns "Mexican" immigrants because those are our brothers and sisters that got pushed behind a European man-made line. I get where everyone else is coming from. The cost. It can't truly be because of safety because it has already been established that they are actually LESS likely to commit crimes than born and raised Americans. That's rhetoric. But when it comes to the actual cost of immigration, documented or otherwise, we SHOULD have enough money to take care of veterans, the homeless, AND foot the bill for making immigration and asylum seekers possible. Once again, if billionaires paid the same tax rate as we do, we could pay for all and then some. For people who work their asses off everyday as I do and have to be super thrifty in order to get by, I am very aware who to direct this frustration towards.
Absolute best post in this whole thread.
 
I suppose I can agree with one thing that you've said. An open border will destroy your country. Proven true for Turtle Island, Australia, South Africa, Canada and many other Aborigine Peoples. Except they weren't invaded by "3rd world" countries. I'm with @Knox on this whole issue and I'll just leave it at that. Thank you Knox for trying to educate people. It doesn't always work, but hey, we all have opinions even if they are distorted. And sick. For a bunch of people that hate the abuse of a child and are willing to open their homes to said children, it's pretty clear that not all children matter to them. Edit: I forgot about you @DIAFplease Thank you.

What is your point here? That mass illegal immigration was bad for back then, but is good now? Or that western nations owe it to poor countries because of the crimes of the father, to accept and every poor person on Earth who wishes to illegally cross their border?

No one has done that. Ever.

Ah yes, they have. They did it in this very thread. Posting wonderful facts about legal immigration to argue for illegal immigration. It's right there, you can read it.
 
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What is your point here? That mass illegal immigration was bad for back then, but is good now? Or that western nations owe it to poor countries because of the crimes of the father, to accept and every poor person on Earth who wishes to illegally cross their border?



Ah yes, they have. They did it in this very thread. Posting wonderful facts about legal immigration to argue for illegal immigration. It's right there, you can read it.
I pose that same question as you. Is mass immigration bad now, but was good then? I was really finished with this topic yesterday and made my position very clear if you read entire thread. I stand with what I said. That is only my point of view and everyone deserves their own. I respect yours. I respect your culture and hopefully you embrace mine as well. This topic is a huge a source of frustration and yet completely humorous among Elders because of the irony of decedents of immigrants to this country now get to decide who gets to stay and who has to go. Come on, you have to see that.
 
@Kiowaprincess

One big difference is that those people came to this country and survived on their own. There were no handouts and nothing was made easy for them.

I would have no problem with people coming here if they were able to make it on their own and did not expect that we own them anything.

This mass migration will only further destroy the countries they are fleeing and turn our country into the one they are escaping from.

All remittance to Central American countries should be stopped as well as aid to these countries.

With your logic almost every country and nation should be questioned since throughout history people have conquered and pillaged and expanded their expires.
 
I pose that same question as you. Is mass immigration bad now, but was good then? I was really finished with this topic yesterday and made my position very clear if you read entire thread. I stand with what I said. That is only my point of view and everyone deserves their own. I respect yours. I respect your culture and hopefully you embrace mine as well. This topic is a huge a source of frustration and yet completely humorous among Elders because of the irony of decedents of immigrants to this country now get to decide who gets to stay and who has to go. Come on, you have to see that.

I do appreciate the civility with which you carry yourself, happy to agree to disagree. I've never been one to defend colonialism, it was a horrific, barbarous time but sadly conquest was the way of the world back then. It was a state of affairs that decimated native cultures and populations for sole benefit of the invaders. Having said that, I refuse to feel guilt for acts perpetrated hundreds of years ago by people who happened to look like me. I don't see the crimes of the past being any justification to allow others to commit crimes against my country. Which is what illegal immigration is. Thankfully here in my country, my views are the same as the overwhelming majority, we admit genuine refugees constantly along with migrants that bring capital investment or needed skills. We refuse to be the worlds welfare agency because we need to look after our own.

I can understand the moral arguments, I understand the desire to help people. But those who claim that illegal migration is a benefit, economic, social or otherwise, to the receiving nation and it legal residents, they're just wrong. It's not true. If it were nations like mine would be running ad campaigns in poor nations to attract economic migrants, not enforcing laws to keep them out.
 
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Big deal, the net cost is upwards of $150 billion. Oh, so make that upwards of $143 billion. Go ahead and play your stupid race games. It has to do with security, not melanin. You know this, you just CHOOSE to reject it because it doesn't sound quite as titillating as "You're a RACIST!" You're "beautiful and abundant truth" is nothing more than skewed partisan bullshit, but hey, embrace that shit while the adults figure out how to get it all paid for without China calling in it's chits.
we could start by stop supporting the biggest welfare anchor baby family in the country& the weird parades buddy hand job handouts no more welfare ranchers or corporations.this tax thing did nothing for anyone but the 1% & we see how they spent that. farmers are crying in the south that nobodies picking their whatever same in other areas like that.
 
From the link.
. Do not post a link to an event to start a discussion unless you plan on offering content. Talk about what you are linking to, explain what you agree or disagree with, like or dislike. It only takes a few sentences and helps the reader understand what you want them to read, and what you want to discuss in particular.

*The content in this post is strictly for comedy value.
:D:D:D
 
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