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Sugar Cookie

Veteran Member
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President Trump confirmed Thursday that there are no survivors after an American Airlines plane and an Army helicopter collided in the air over Washington DC Wednesday night. The search-and-rescue operation became a recovery mission in the early morning hours, officials said.

The flight from Wichita, Kan., collided with the military chopper while approaching Runaway 33 at Reagan National airport around 9 p.m., according to the Federal Aviation Administration.

First responders had recovered at least 19 bodies from the river as of early Thursday, CBS reports.
There were 64 people aboard American Flight 5324, with 28 bodies recovered from the river so far, officials said Thursday afternoon. The bodies of all three soldiers who were on the Army helicopter had been recovered as well.

Now is not the time for this.
Trump is laying out his grievances with the Department of Transportation and its former secretary, Pete Buttigieg, sarcastically calling him a "real winner" with a "good line of bulls---."

"He's run it right into the ground with his diversity."
"[The] FAA website states they include hearing, vision, missing extremities, partial paralysis, complete paralysis, epilepsy, severe intellectual disability, psychiatric disability and dwarfism all qualified for the position of a controller.

"The FAA — another story — determined that the workforce was too white… they actually came out with a directive -- too white -- and we want the people that are competent."

Trump needs to tone down the rhetoric of how everyone is bad.

Work on fixing the system instead of just raging on about how bad it is or was.
 
Now is not the time for this.



Trump needs to tone down the rhetoric of how everyone is bad.

Work on fixing the system instead of just raging on about how bad it is or was.
His points aren't invalid, but they are poorly timed. He should lay off for a day or two before he starts in on pointing out that hiring someone to fill a quota or check a box leaves us ALL less safe. IMHO at least... :facepalm:
 
Highly tragic and devastating, no matter what happened or who/what caused it. I heard about it last night, and so many families are missing a loved one when they shouldn't be.

The lines of inter-aircraft communication need to be clear, and even the most basic pilot awareness could've avoided this. (I won't say more than that, though. I don't want to be a ghoulish speculator.)

One thing this reminds me of is an extremely close miss that happened involving the plane of the Gonzaga men's basketball team recently. It was so close that Air Traffic Control told the pilots, "Stop. Stop. Stop," with exceptional urgency. When viewing the video of the below link, I'm surprised he was so calm. It is a great thing that no collision actually happened, but even that is too far.


The airline industry as of recent have had extreme troubles. This crash at the Reagan airport is way too similar to the crash in South Korea, perhaps with the exception of no wall barrier being involved in this week's AA crash. The casualty count is very similar, at least.

I hear that planes/helicopters being a few thousand feet within each other is still way too close. Planes are extremely fast, and can cover dozens of miles in a matter of seconds. They need every inch of the path in front of them to be clear. Even birds can distort a plane route and deter the experience of the plane flying, if one, for example, gets sucked up in the engines.

We can't have these crashes, or parts of the plane shell peeling off mid-flight, or someone in the cockpit who finds all these knobs and switches in front of him/her so confusing. Crap like this reinforces why I haven't flown a plane in almost a decade. Saying that "planes are generally safer than cars" sounds more and more like a mainstream media talking point that doesn't hold up underneath even soft scrutiny.
 
Highly tragic and devastating, no matter what happened or who/what caused it. I heard about it last night, and so many families are missing a loved one when they shouldn't be.

The lines of inter-aircraft communication need to be clear, and even the most basic pilot awareness could've avoided this. (I won't say more than that, though. I don't want to be a ghoulish speculator.)

One thing this reminds me of is an extremely close miss that happened involving the plane of the Gonzaga men's basketball team recently. It was so close that Air Traffic Control told the pilots, "Stop. Stop. Stop," with exceptional urgency. When viewing the video of the below link, I'm surprised he was so calm. It is a great thing that no collision actually happened, but even that is too far.


The airline industry as of recent have had extreme troubles. This crash at the Reagan airport is way too similar to the crash in South Korea, perhaps with the exception of no wall barrier being involved in this week's AA crash. The casualty count is very similar, at least.

I hear that planes/helicopters being a few thousand feet within each other is still way too close. Planes are extremely fast, and can cover dozens of miles in a matter of seconds. They need every inch of the path in front of them to be clear. Even birds can distort a plane route and deter the experience of the plane flying, if one, for example, gets sucked up in the engines.

We can't have these crashes, or parts of the plane shell peeling off mid-flight, or someone in the cockpit who finds all these knobs and switches in front of him/her so confusing. Crap like this reinforces why I haven't flown a plane in almost a decade. Saying that "planes are generally safer than cars" sounds more and more like a mainstream media talking point that doesn't hold up underneath even soft scrutiny.
This story's crash was clearly due to DIEversity, but here are more reasons to avoid flying (as if the TSA's gate-rape weren't reason enough):





There are many more stories, including Davos participants and other wealthy elites seeking to hire pilots who had so far resisted the coronahoax deathvax:


 
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Not to seem like a tinfoil-hat-wearing-conspiracy-theorist (because I truly despise those kinda people and their paranoid bullshit), but I'm just saying, the video of the crash clearly shows the Blackhawk bee-lining for the rear of the plane. I find it difficult to believe they didn't see the plane and it's obvious lights, especially considering aircrafts have specialized systems on board specifically for identifying other nearby aircrafts to avoid collisions like this one. And was that shift of ATC all passed out at their fucking desks?! Baffling how this could possibly happen in 2025. Something just seems off. I wonder what the black boxes would bring to light.
 

Young ice skating duo, their coach, among the dead in DC plane crash​

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A young ice skating duo and their coach were among the victims aboard the doomed American Airlines plane that collided with a Black Hawk chopper Wednesday night, according to a report.

Youngsters Angela Yang and Sean Kay and their teacher Alexandr “Sasha” Kirsanov were all killed as the plane traveling from Wichita, Kansas attempted to land at Reagan National Airport in DC around 9 p.m., the coach’s wife told the News Journal.
Yang and Kay were members of the University of Delaware Figure Skating Club. The pair went to Wichita last week to attend the National Development Camp where young promising skaters receive training.
More than a dozen figure skaters were on the flight traveling back from the camp that was held along with the US Figure Skating Championships last week.
Continue reading
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Yang and Kay with their coach by their side as they compete in the Midwestern Sectional US Ice Dance Final.

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Family of four, including skating sisters, 11 and 14, killed in DC plane crash
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Two sisters, who figure skated at a national championship in Wichita, Kansas, and their parents were among those killed in the devastating Washington, DC plane crash, relatives said Thursday.

Virginia resident Donna Livingston and her husband, Peter, along with their two daughters, Everly, 11, and Alydia, 14, were named as victims of the horrific collision.
The girls were part of the Washington Figure Skating Club and often shared footage of their spirited routines on Instagram under the handle @ice_skating_sisters.

In a final Instagram post, the sisters posed with smiles in front of the ice at the US Figure Skating Championships in Wichita.
“We were born ready for this but is @usfigureskating ready for this much Livingston at Nationals?” the heartbreaking photo caption reads.
 
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Not to seem like a tinfoil-hat-wearing-conspiracy-theorist (because I truly despise those kinda people and their paranoid bullshit), but I'm just saying, the video of the crash clearly shows the Blackhawk bee-lining for the rear of the plane. I find it difficult to believe they didn't see the plane and it's obvious lights, especially considering aircrafts have specialized systems on board specifically for identifying other nearby aircrafts to avoid collisions like this one. And was that shift of ATC all passed out at their fucking desks?! Baffling how this could possibly happen in 2025. Something just seems off. I wonder what the black boxes would bring to light.
After seeing the video, I had the same thought. It looks like the helicopter went right for the plane.
While I also hate just jumping to conclusions, especially when lives are lost like this, the small amount of information we have does have enough to make a sane person at least have serious questions about this possibly being done on purpose. Of course, unbelievable levels of negligence are also very possible. Maybe multiple mechanical failures, but it seems unlikely that there wouldn't have been more signs - a call for help or, since you could maybe assume there were issues with that too, the helicopter making more erratic movements.
But that video, claims that the helicopter didn't answer contact attempts...it kind of paints a picture that looks bleak.
 
Does anyone think the helicopter hit the plane on purpose?
No.

FAA embroiled in lawsuit alleging it turned away 1,000 applicants based on race — that contributed to staffing woes​

The Federal Aviation Administration is fighting a class-action lawsuit alleging it denied 1,000 would-be air traffic controllers jobs because of diversity hiring targets — as it was revealed that staffing levels were “not normal” at the time of this week’s deadly midair collision.

Complaints about the FAA’s hiring policies resurfaced after the American Airlines passenger plane and a Black Hawk helicopter crashed in Washington, DC, on Wednesday, killing 67 people in the country’s deadliest aviation disaster in almost a quarter-century.

Details of the litigation re-emerged, too, as Andrew Brigida, the lead plaintiff in the suit filed in 2015, suggested the federal aviation agency’s obsession with diversity hiring and inclusion had only ensured that an accident was likely to happen.
 
Hoping it's not a violation of the Dreamin' Demon Republic of Malcontents Constitution to post this tangentially-related news flash in this thread. There's just been a terrible fiery airplane crash in a residential neighborhood in Philly, too:





]





 
No.

FAA embroiled in lawsuit alleging it turned away 1,000 applicants based on race — that contributed to staffing woes​


How could the helicopter not see the airplane?

I just don't think the crash can be blamed on the air traffic controller on duty.
 
How could the helicopter not see the airplane?

I just don't think the crash can be blamed on the air traffic controller on duty.
I have to agree.
Let's play Devils Advocate and say that there was some horrible ATC...
It doesn't explain how they didn't see the airplane. The airplane was warned about the helicopter, and even if the helicopter wasn't warned about an exact aircraft - they're right near an airport! It's beyond common sense to keep a lookout because you never know if another aircraft will have an issue and lose altitude/not be where they should be and hit you before you know about it. Being so close to where they touch down/lift off and being so much smaller, you should be paying attention. And given it was like straight ahead and not above the helicopter (at least to a point it should be a full blind spot), the lights at very least should have been visible.
Unless there was some serious and abrupt malfunction or maybe, just maybe, a medical emergency of some sort. But seeing how strict military piloting is, it would have to be something very abrupt and undiagnosed at that point. Again, the helicopter seems to be too controlled for that option as well.
But imo (which, to be fair, is based on what we know now and common sense, not the whole picture), it seems more likely it has got to be intentional or extreme negligence (like not paying any attention, using before flying, etc) in the cockpit.
The ATC theory just doesn't explain why the helicopter was somewhere it wasn't supposed to be and ignored attempts for contact. The controller doesn't have anything to do with that.
 
Talking to actual Black Hawk pilots...

spent about 45 minutes on a call with a former Blackhawk pilot who is currently a pilot for a major carrier. His assessment is that the crash was likely due to a cascading series of errors in part due to inadequate disclosure from the Tower about the location and altitude of the regional aircraft compounded by inadequate staffing in the Tower, and the diminished situational awareness of the pilot of the Blackhawk due to the use of night vision goggles. He further explained that automated flight sensors are generally turned off below 1,000 feet as Visual Flight Rules apply and automated warnings and systems are considered distractions and/or otherwise increase risk. He explained that the Blackhawk test runs are necessary to prepare for the potential need to evacuate the Pres/VP and others in the hierarchy of command to the airport and/or secret bunkers in the event of an enemy attack. I found his assessment to be extremely credible, which leads me to believe that this was most certainly a tragic accident. In the conversation, he also expressed his concern about how the FAA fails to act with sufficient urgency to address serious safety issues that pilots and others have raised for years until ‘blood is shed.’ He explained that the FAA’s dual missions to promote air travel and safeguard the skies are in conflict, and lead to long delays in implementing important safety changes in protocols and equipment as carriers push back against investing capital and/or introducing new procedures that cost money and/or time. He gave me a number of such examples from the past where the FAA delayed acting on pilot concerns until planes went down. He explained that the FAA has been captured by the airline industry, much like the FDA has been inappropriately captured and influenced by the Pharma lobby. While he generally believes that Air Traffic Control does ‘a great job,’ he also expressed agreement with
@realDonaldTrump
in how DEI has injected itself into ATC and in pilot recruitment. He gave examples of having to take over the controls within moments of landing to avoid a crash landing when a co-pilot with inadequate experience, training and capabilities was too quickly advanced into the cockpit to meet DEI goals. He also said the pilot shortage is real and we need to recruit more candidates. All of the above create a real opportunity for change in U.S. aviation in the Trump administration and speak to the importance of the selection of new leadership for the FAA and a focus on excellence and meritocracy rather than meeting quota goals. I have always believed that good comes from the bad. Let’s not let the 67 souls who lost their lives die in vain. Let’s make sure this tragedy is a catalyst for important and rapid improvements in US aviation.
 
There's a large number of the public that feels that way.

An Air Force member embarked out of Tucson the day he committed suicide with a plane:

"Craig David Button was a United States Air Force captain who died when he crashed a Fairchild A-10 Thunderbolt II aircraft ...on 2 April 1997."

It's not unheard of. Just saying.

FAA embroiled in lawsuit alleging it turned away 1,000 applicants based on race — that contributed to staffing woes​



From the article:

Dude filed suit in 2015

"During President Trump’s first term, Federal Transportation Department lawyers argued to toss Brigida’s case, saying deciding to open up applications to more diverse candidates isn’t legitimate grounds for a discrimination suit."

"The government added that Brigida can’t claim discrimination just because the new system no longer benefits him.

“Title VII protects equal treatment, not preferential treatment,” officials wrote."



From the FAA hiring policies for ATCs:

Be under the age of 31
Pass a medical examination
Pass a security investigation
Pass the FAA air traffic pre-employment tests, including the Air Traffic Controller Specialists Skills Assessment Battery (ATSA)


+ more

Candidates must be physically and mentally fit and meet standards for vision, hearing, cardiovascular, neurological and psychiatric health.

They have very high standards.
Here's a couple:

"Applicants must demonstrate distant and near vision of 20/20 or better in each eye separately. The use of bifocal contact lenses for the correction of near vision is unacceptable."

"Applicants must demonstrate normal color vision."

No deformity of spine or limbs of sufficient degree to interfere with satisfactory and safe performance of duty."


Not many get past filling out an application and taking the written test:

"Less than 10% of all applicants meet these requirements and are accepted into the training program. " ( the head of the union says 2%)

They're not hiring their wife's nephew or people with GED's or any jail time or half wits or Mr. Magoos over there.

**********************

Or maybe, maybe, it was something like this, and the 7 errors:

Malcolm Gladwell, author of Outliers:

"In a typical crash, for example, the weather is poor—not terrible, necessarily, but bad enough that the pilot feels a little bit more stressed than usual.
In an overwhelming number of crashes, the plane is behind schedule, so the pilots are hurrying.
In 52 percent of crashes, the pilot at the time of the accident has been awake for twelve hours or more, meaning that he is tired and not thinking sharply.
And 44 percent of the time, the two pilots have never flown together before, so they’re not comfortable with each other.

Then the errors start—and it’s not just one error. The typical accident involves seven consecutive human errors.

One of the pilots does something wrong that by itself is not a problem. Then one of them makes another error on top of that, which combined with the first error still does not amount to catastrophe.
But then they make a third error on top of that, and then another and another and another and another, and it is the combination of all those errors that leads to disaster.
These seven errors, furthermore, are rarely problems of knowledge or flying skill.
It’s not that the pilot has to negotiate some critical technical maneuver and fails.
The kinds of errors that cause plane crashes are invariably errors of teamwork and communication.
One pilot knows something important and somehow doesn’t tell the other pilot.
One pilot does something wrong, and the other pilot doesn’t catch the error."


I know Gladwell is talking about planes, not helicopters, but I think a lot is transferrable.


Pretty sure once it's all said and done, we'll find out that neither Biden or Trump was flying the helicopter.
And the ATC was just some average white dude who did his job just fine.

Or not.


 
Trump is 100% correct as thousand of qualified controlers were turned away based on skin color while thousands of unqualified people were hired because of the Biden administration's racist policies.
 
No.

FAA embroiled in lawsuit alleging it turned away 1,000 applicants based on race — that contributed to staffing woes​


Totally believable I made a post about being involved with this same situation and an other poster on here claimed they also hire and it wasn't true. We had unqualified employees that were not fired because of quota mandates to get certain grants and government contracts
The problem was if you fired a DEI, you had to hire another DEI to meet quota, so you were better off just keeping the one you had. So you passed on qualified individuals to meet quota. Part of the problem was you didn't get enough of the right color applicants so you couldn't be selective
 
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How could the helicopter not see the airplane?

I just don't think the crash can be blamed on the air traffic controller on duty.
Wait for the final analysis, but seems instead of telling the helicopter to drop altitude, controller keep asking if the pilot could see the plane
 
I still do not see how this crash can be blamed on a DEI hire.

Even if the controller was not competent - why did the helicopter not see the plane.

@Turd Fergusen

This is a question - I just don't understand.

So no one was hired because they did not get the applicants they wanted?
 
I still do not see how this crash can be blamed on a DEI hire.

Even if the controller was not competent - why did the helicopter not see the plane.

@Turd Fergusen

This is a question - I just don't understand.

So no one was hired because they did not get the applicants they wanted?
We don't yet know controller or pilot
Yes, to meet federal quotas, they couldn't hire anyone that did fit the mandate
Basically they couldn't hire anymore Caucasian controllers until federal quotas were met
 
Wait for the final analysis, but seems instead of telling the helicopter to drop altitude, controller keep asking if the pilot could see the plane

What I was reading yesterday is the ATC kept asking if the BH could see the plane and the BH answered that they could, but they were looking at the wrong plane. They were looking at the plane that was landing on runway 1 instead of the plane that had been diverted to another runway. The plane that was diverted was the one the BH hit. The claim is there was no call numbers used, just asking, "do you see the plane?" But the BH was unknowingly looking at the wrong plane.

That is my understanding of it, Of course it may not be correct.
 

"I guarantee it was basically pilot error," an active duty Army helicopter pilot, who did not want to be identified, tells PEOPLE.

The pilot, who is not on the team investigating the crash but has investigated other helicopter collisions in the past, explained: "The Black Hawk accepted responsibility for the separation of traffic. That means, they would monitor and address the flight paths themselves. The Black Hawk asked for 'visual separation,' meaning, 'We got this.' "

"That took [the responsibility] off Air Traffic Control's shoulders," the pilot explained.

The pilot said that when this happens, the control tower leaves it up to the aircraft to decide how to proceed, "knowing you've got it."

"When that happens, the tower is now consumed with whatever the priorities are — the next alligator closest to the canoe," he added.

The pilot notes that the tower asked the Black Hawk helicopter if they saw the American Airlines aircraft, a PSA Airlines Bombardier CRJ700 regional jet nicknamed "RJ." Though the pilot points out that the Black Hawk, a Sikorsky H-60 helicopter, did confirm it saw the passenger plane, he adds, "We believe they were looking at the wrong plane. They were not looking at the RJ." (According to audio obtained by the Associated Press, an air traffic controller asked the helicopter if it had the landing plane in sight, later adding after no response: “PAT 25 pass behind the CRJ.”)

Laurie Garrow, a professor and director of the Air Transportation Lab at Georgia Tech, agrees.

"It does appear that [the Black Hawk pilot] thought he had sight on the aircraft, but there were multiple aircraft in the area. And it may be that he had sight on a different aircraft. So I don't think he was aware that he was in the flight path of this American Eagles flight or maneuvered to avoid a different one," she surmised.

Garrow described the airspace above D.C. as "lanes in the sky that you need to stay [in]."

"In DC, those lanes are very narrow because we have a lot of buildings that are close by the airport. So when you take off, you have to climb at a certain altitude or do some very quick turns to be able to avoid the tall buildings and also sensitive areas," she explained. "You can't fly over the White House, can't fly over memorials and malls. So it's very common that aircraft are going on the Potomac, but that probably also creates more congestion and things to manage, particularly if you're mixing commercial and military operations."

Sounds like a very stupid and dangerous place to have an airport, given the how busy the airport is and how many places aircraft can't fly over.
 
Yeah, not so much a DEI hire, but the preventing of a hire.

Anyway, FWIW, might explain why it was flying higher than normal. I've also read a Blackhawk pilot say that flying with night vision goggles is like looking out of two TP tubes as far as restricting your vision:

Black Hawk in DC plane crash was practicing top-secret ‘continuity of government mission’ in case of attack on US​

The doomed military helicopter that collided with an American Airlines flight over Washington, DC, Wednesday night was conducting training to prepare for a catastrophic event or attack on the US, according to officials.

The crew aboard the UH-60 Black Hawk chopper, the 12th Aviation Battalion, is responsible for top-secret evacuation missions meant to whisk top US officials from DC to secure locations in the case of a national emergency such as a terrorist or nuclear attack.

In a press conference on Thursday night, US Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth said the soldiers “were on a routine, annual re-training of night flights on a standard corridor for a continuity of government mission.”
 
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The female pilot killed in the Army helicopter collision with a passenger jet in Washington DC has been named as a former aide to President Joe Biden.
Captain Rebecca Lobach, 28, whose identity was kept secret, had served as an officer for almost six years and worked as a White House aide in the Biden administration.

She had been awarded the Army Commendation Medal, Army Achievement Medal, National Defense Service Medal and Army Service Ribbon.
The decision to release her name came “at the request of and in coordination with the family”, according to a statement issued by the US Army.

“We are devastated by the loss of our beloved Rebecca. She was a bright star in all our lives,” her family said in a statement released by the Army.
The Black Hawk helicopter was conducting a training flight for Captain Lobach when it collided with an American Airlines passenger jet, killing 67 people.

She was being overseen by Chief Warrant Officer 2 Andrew Lloyd Eaves, who had more than 1,000 hours of flying experience and would have been expected to take over the controls in the event of an emergency.
All three soldiers on the Army aircraft were killed in the crash above Ronald Reagan National Airport, as well as the 64 passengers and crew on American Airlines flight 5342.
The crew chief of the helicopter has been identified as Ryan O’Hara, a 28-year-old father of one.

He would have sat in the back of the helicopter on its training mission through the congested airspace above Washington DC.
The crew’s actions and the role of air traffic control are being investigated by the National Transportation Safety Board.

The investigations typically take at least a year, though investigators hope to have a preliminary report within 30 days.
At the time of the collision, one controller was managing traffic for both helicopters and planes, a job normally handled by two people, according to The New York Times. Staffing levels were “not normal”, the Federal Aviation Administration said.

Other possible factors in the crash, including the helicopter’s altitude and whether the crew was using night-vision goggles, are still under investigation.
Read complete article here
 

Air traffic controller shortage of 3,800 due to DEI practices cutting ‘too white, too elite’ candidates​

A critical shortage of 3,800 air traffic controllers is because of the Federal Aviation Administration’s DEI practices leaving a “gaping hole” in recruitment, a lawyer claimed to The Post.

Over 1,000 would-be air traffic controllers were wiped out from consideration overnight because of diversity and inclusion hiring targets suddenly being implemented, according to the lead lawyer in a class-action lawsuit against the FAA.

Michael Pearson told The Post his clients had completed all their training at FAA-approved institutions before they were placed in a direct hiring pool for air traffic controllers — as was standard at the time.

Within months of graduating, they were informed by the FAA they would need to pass a new “biographical assessment” which, he claimed, awarded extra points to people with “no aviation experience.”

“The FAA basically decided the students were too white and the schools too elite, so in 2013 knocked them off the preferred hiring list they had trained and worked hard to get onto — all because of their race,” Pearson claimed.

The air traffic control issue was sharply brought into focus on Jan. 31 when an American Airlines passenger plane and a Black Hawk helicopter collided at Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport in Washington, DC, killing 67 people in the country’s deadliest aviation disaster in almost 25 years.

The air traffic control tower was operating with 19 full-time staff, two-thirds of the 30 recommended by the FAA. Nationwide there are 10,800 air traffic controllers (ATCs), but 14,600 are needed to meet the current demand, according to the National Air Traffic Controllers Association.
 
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