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Pete Bondurant

Veteran Member
Execute them and be done with it. So-called rehabilitation programmes exist simply to employ these worthless psychology majors with their worthless degrees. This is my unshakeable belief!
 

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lvl up

Active Member
longer sentences has had zero impact on juvenile crime rates.
Children have no concept of time, thus the "Are we there yet?" on repeat joke. Now let's add something most children/teens who end up in these situations find completely abstract: punishment.

rehab is a joke in this country
Aaand most people think rehab is a spa.

I agree whole heartedly
 

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Athena

Buzzkill.
Staff member
Actually I'm going to be forced to disagree with you here Athena, at least on the welfare part. In the state this occurred in (Missouri) the average welfare recipient makes approx $26k a year and does not pay taxes. I work 4 12s in a dangerous shithole and make $30k and am taxed. So technically, I could quit my job, sit on my ass, and make just as much, if not more, than I do now. Plus I get a free cell phone and XX minutes per month. I would also qualify for Section 8 housing, so I only pay a percentage of my rent. Then if I get pregnant, now I qualify for WIC! Missouri ranks 30th in the nation as far as welfare benefits. Sounds like a sweet deal to me.....I believe it is indeed, a flawed system.
But you haven't, have you?

I'm not saying it's not a deeply flawed system. I'm just saying the majority of recipients did not intentionally pop out a child to land themselves there as was asserted. The $26k number you referenced comes from CATO, which does good work, but this article explains why it's not entirely accurate. It's a very informative read on the state of welfare in this nation, which varies dramatically by state.
 

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Abroad

Veteran Member
@gatekeeper : BBC had an article about the developments in Texas the other day! I thought this part was particularly interesting:

Texas, for instance, has half the population of the UK but twice its number of prisoners.

Then something happened in 2007, when Texas Republican Congressman Jerry Madden was appointed chairman of the House Corrections Committee with the now famous words by his party leader: "Don't build new prisons. They cost too much."

The impulse to what has become the Right on Crime initiative was fiscal conservatism - the strong sense that the taxpayer was paying way too much money to fight a losing war against drugs, mental ill-health and petty criminality.

What Madden found was that too many low-level offenders were spending too long in prison, and not reforming. On the contrary, they were getting worse inside and not getting the help they needed on release.

The only response until then, from Democrat as well as Republican legislators, was to build more prisons. Indeed, Mr Madden's analysis suggested that a further 17,000 prisoners were coming down the pipe towards them, requiring an extra $500m (£320m) for new prisons. But he and his party didn't want to spend more money building new prisons. So they thought of something else - rehab.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-30275026
 

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Athena

Buzzkill.
Staff member
It's funny... fiscal conservatism has pushed most liberal reform in prisons lately. States are eliminating the death penalty because, cost. Mandatory minimums are being rolled back because, cost. Treatment-based sentencing alternatives are being pursued because, cost.

It's lucky that the smart things are also the cheaper things.
 

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Pete Bondurant

Veteran Member
It's funny... fiscal conservatism has pushed most liberal reform in prisons lately. States are eliminating the death penalty because, cost. Mandatory minimums are being rolled back because, cost. Treatment-based sentencing alternatives are being pursued because, cost.

It's lucky that the smart things are also the cheaper things.
This angers me. I am angered.
 

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JackBurton

Veteran Member
Bold Member!
In situations like this involving minors, there tends to be a Lord of the Flies style ring leader, and those who follow him (or her) are quite likely to respond positively to rehabilitation.
They don't deserve rehabilitation. Any kid involved in something like this should never see freedom again.
 

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Athena

Buzzkill.
Staff member
They don't deserve rehabilitation. Any kid involved in something like this should never see freedom again.
Except, that's not how our prison system works. They WILL get out of prison. Potentially, disturbingly soon. So deserved or not, rehabilitation is a must.
 

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Athena

Buzzkill.
Staff member
Oh, Pete...

Do you have custom toilet paper with the Constitution printed on it? I bet you do.
 

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gatekeeper

Loves the "Funny" Button
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. As it stands (and as it has stood), all we've done in "Corrections" is create better, more criminally educated criminals. If they were inept when they went in, they won't be when they get out. As always, your mileage may vary. ;)


Drat the typos! I need zzzzz's.
 
Last edited:

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biteme

The Rev, Molon labe
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. As it stands (and as it has stood), all we've done in "Corrections" is create better, more criminally educated criminals. If they were inept when they went in, they won't be when they get out. As always, your mileage may vary. ;)


Drat the typos! I need zzzzz's.
And that folks is how prison rehabilitation works, they are better qualified to not get caught when released
 

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JackBurton

Veteran Member
Bold Member!
Except, that's not how our prison system works. They WILL get out of prison. Potentially, disturbingly soon. So deserved or not, rehabilitation is a must.
Yeah i know, which is total bullshit and it needs to change. Society is wayyyyyyy too hesitant to throw life without parole at minors.
 

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Kathy

Trusted Member
CNN = COMMUNIST NEW NETWORK
Which means you will only hear what they want you to hear. I still have not heard much on this story from any of the networks which is no surprise. I'm not claiming the white victim issue or anything like that but a little respect for him and his family would be nice and appropriate. :oops:
 

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Athena

Buzzkill.
Staff member
Yeah i know, which is total bullshit and it needs to change. Society is wayyyyyyy too hesitant to throw life without parole at minors.
Considering we're the only country that does it at all in the first place, I would respectfully disagree.
 

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Sugar Cookie

Veteran Member
Bold Member!
Jul 19, 2018

Two more defendants accused in a deadly hammer attack in the Bevo Mill neighborhood in 2014 have admitted their role in the case.

Robert Mitchell, 21, pleaded guilty Wednesday to a reduced count of second-degree murder — also called felony murder — which means someone died during the commission of a felony.

Mitchell's plea comes nearly two weeks after Darrian Johner, 19, was sentenced to 18 years in prison. Johner pleaded guilty to the same reduced charge in March.

Zemir Begic, 32, was attacked and killed Nov. 30, 2014

Police said Mitchell, then 17, Travis Kidd, then 16, along with 15-year-olds Johner and Juan Carlos Fabian-Lutz, took part in the attack on Begic.

All four teens were originally charged with first-degree murder and armed criminal action in the attack, which triggered street protests in St. Louis' Bosnian community.

Prosecutors dropped charges of armed criminal action against Johner and Mitchell in exchange for their pleas. Mitchell's sentencing hearing is set for Sept. 7 before Circuit Judge Bryan Hettenbach.


Fabian-Lutz, now 19, pleaded guilty to second-degree murder in January 2017 and received a 25-year sentence as part of a dual jurisdiction program that requires biannual progress reports until his 21st birthday when he is eligible for probation or parole.

Kidd's case is the last of the four still pending, court records say. Kidd, now 19, faces charges of first-degree murder and armed criminal action.
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/two-more-admit-roles-in-hammer-killing-of-bosnian-man/article_32742f48-f6cc-5e55-9047-88a64b462513.html

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https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/fourth-teen-charged-in-hammer-killing-of-bosnian-man-in/article_9a48b429-f7cc-5c9e-b99e-56ffdddace55.html
 

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Sugar Cookie

Veteran Member
Bold Member!
@Satanica @Nell
The last of four teenagers involved in the brutal killing of a Bosnian immigrant in 2014 was sentenced Friday.

20-year-old Travis Kidd will spend 18 years in prison as a result of a plea deal.

Kidd was 16 when he, along with two 15-year-old boys and a 17-year-old attacked and killed Zemir Begic in the Bevo neighborhood.

Begic, his fiancée, and two friends were walking to their vehicle around 1:15 a.m. on Sunday, November 30, 2014, when they were accosted by four teenagers. Begic and his group got into their vehicle and drove off but one of the teens jumped on the back of the car.

Begic got out of his car and exchanged words with that individual, at which point the other teenagers attacked. Prosecutors said one of the suspects, identified as Juan Carlos Fabian-Lutz, struck Begic with a hammer, causing blunt force trauma to the head and upper body. The suspects fled after the attack.

Begic was taken to a nearby hospital where he was pronounced dead.

The four suspects, identified as Fabian-Lutz, Darrian Johner, Kidd, and Robert Mitchell.

Fabian-Lutz and Johner were 15 at the time of the murder. Kidd and Mitchell were 16 and 17 years of age, respectively.

Fabian-Lutz was sentenced to 25 years in prison. He’ll be eligible for parole or probation on his 21st birthday.

Mitchell and Johner were each sentenced to 18 years in prison.
 

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