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China

La Mera Mera
Jahi is moving when her mother speaks," he said. "We have video our attorneys have just produced it to the hospital's attorney.
Why isn't the video plastered all over the place?..i would like to see said video.
 

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DevilDoll

Active Member
Why isn't the video plastered all over the place?..i would like to see said video.
I just said the same thing. If there was such a video you would think the family would have it plastered on every media outlet in existence.
 

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Teleute

Justice Democrat
Bold Member!
Would it be a violation of the court order to temporarily move the other patients out of that wing of the hospital and then cut the power? The corpse would remain hooked up to life support after all.

I am beyond disgusted.
 

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Dakota

FORUM BITCH / Beloved Cunt
Bold Member!
I wish the media would quit referring to it as "life support". At this point, it's more like "decomposition delay efforts".
 

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Azryhael

Princess of Putrefaction
How long can a brain dead person last on a vent?
It's pretty much indefinite.

Until her heart gives out, the vent can keep oxygen circulating through the bloodstream. She could, theoretically, be kept "breathing" for a full life span- another 65 years or so. There are a lot of other factors that will knock down the amount of time, like the possibility of blood clots or infections and the emaciation that comes with total parenteral (IV) nutrition. It's just not ethical to keep a beating-heart cadaver on a ventilator indefinitely, though, so we really don't know.
 
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TeeJay

Well-Known Member
No, I think they have, which is why Mom was careful to call the nursing facility a "hospital" on GoFundMe. It would also explain why they haven't bothered to contacting the coroner's office; even with a permit, without the hospital's cooperation, the body would need to be embalmed prior to being moved.



According to whom though? I don't believe that. I don't think Mom has any expectation of moving the body, and perhaps she never really has; she's just out to make things as difficult as possible for the hospital while scoring pity points with the general press. I think Mom and/or the attorney are playing to sue for emotional distress along in addition to the inevitable malpractice suit.
Oh yeah, you mentioned that before and it apparently went over my head. lol

I think I read that the lawyer is working for free through the family's statement that was released by the lawyer. hahaha

I also think you are right on the money! pun intened- wocka wocka wocka
This is so disgusting.

If the family has a facility willing to accept the corpse, an air carrier to fly the body door to door (IIRC helicopters cannot fly cross country. They would have to make a shit ton of pit stops. Unless they mean a private plane is taking them, then it actually isn't considered airlifted- @Teleute @Azryhael please weigh in), and a physician to tag along (to perform CPR, I'm sure), why do they need another week to transport? They plan on sight seeing along the way?

Why isn't the video plastered all over the place?..i would like to see said video.
Exactly! Just like all the brain dead people who woke up. No one has ever provided supporting documentation or test results that prove or show they were ever declared brain dead.

I wish the media would quit referring to it as "life support". At this point, it's more like "decomposition delay efforts".
The medical community has been trying to get away from "life support" for at least a decade. It's only life support if the person is alive and the medical community didn't think about what to continue to call it once a person became brain dead. It's supposed to be referred to as mechanical ventilation from the get go so it doesn't provide false hope in the event the person becomes brain dead.

Blame the old farts who refuse to evolve. :p
 

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mopar

Active Member
So if there is no blood flow to the brain will it continue to be healthy even though her body maintains ? Seems like a worse way to go to me. I would be horrified at my parents if they pulled this kinda crap.
 

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Teleute

Justice Democrat
Bold Member!
I think I read that the lawyer is working for free through the family's statement that was released by the lawyer. hahaha


If the family has a facility willing to accept the corpse, an air carrier to fly the body door to door (IIRC helicopters cannot fly cross country. They would have to make a shit ton of pit stops. Unless they mean a private plane is taking them, then it actually isn't considered airlifted- @Teleute @Azryhael please weigh in), and a physician to tag along (to perform CPR, I'm sure), why do they need another week to transport? They plan on sight seeing along the way?
The only way they can get the body over these -- if this is in fact a New York HOSPITAL we're talking about -- is for the New York hospital to come and get the corpse themselves. A private carrier can neither move the body through nor out of California unless it has been embalmed (or stored in an airtight container), and Children's Hospital sure as fuck isn't going to transport it.

I think they "need" the extra week because they want the extra week. The longer the body spends hooked up to Decomposition Delay Devices (thanks @Dakota), the more the hospital has to suffer, which is what Mom ultimately wants -- besides making oodles of cash.

The body isn't going to New York. Mark my word, whatever "arrangements" they'll claim to make are going to fall through at the last minute, which will make Mom's story seem all the more tragic when she finally sues the hospital.

The medical community has been trying to get away from "life support" for at least a decade. It's only life support if the person is alive and the medical community didn't think about what to continue to call it once a person became brain dead. It's supposed to be referred to as mechanical ventilation from the get go so it doesn't provide false hope in the event the person becomes brain dead.
The problem is, 'mechanical ventilation' only covers the respirator. This body is also being sustained via a feeding tube, and probably other measures such as a urinary catheterization. 'Life support' is at least a blanket term, which covers all sorts of life-prolonging and/or decomposition-inhibiting measures. There really ought to be an alternative term, but for now I'm content with "decomposition inhibition."
 

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stefania

Active Member
Children's Hospital is interfering with the transfer by claiming Jahi is dead and they would be transporting a corpse.
As soon as the NY facility finds out the girl is really brain dead they will back out too. So will the air carrier.
Another week of this circus? Gee, thanks judge. These people are risking contempt charges by misleading people. Enough is enough.
 

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TeeJay

Well-Known Member




The only way they can get the body over these -- if this is in fact a New York HOSPITAL we're talking about -- is for the New York hospital to come and get the corpse themselves. A private carrier can neither move the body through nor out of California unless it has been embalmed (or stored in an airtight container), and Children's Hospital sure as fuck isn't going to transport it.
Oh, I get the embalming/airtight container thing. I should have been specific to my question. The attorney and family have been using the term "airlifted" as the mode of transportation for transfer. I've only ever heard the term airlifted to mean a helicopter. I was wondering if you or @Azryhael have ever heard the term to be used with fixed wing aircraft.

I think they "need" the extra week because they want the extra week. The longer the body spends hooked up to Decomposition Delay Devices (thanks @Dakota), the more the hospital has to suffer, which is what Mom ultimately wants -- besides making oodles of cash.

The body isn't going to New York. Mark my word, whatever "arrangements" they'll claim to make are going to fall through at the last minute, which will make Mom's story seem all the more tragic when she finally sues the hospital.
It's like you're in my head.



The problem is, 'mechanical ventilation' only covers the respirator. This body is also being sustained via a feeding tube, and probably other measures such as a urinary catheterization. 'Life support' is at least a blanket term, which covers all sorts of life-prolonging and/or decomposition-inhibiting measures. There really ought to be an alternative term, but for now I'm content with "decomposition inhibition."
This is very true as a whole. I think the intention with using mechanical ventilation is because the general public equates the ventilator with "life support" and the other forms of life support like the feeding tube, urinary cath, IVs, and dialysis as life sustaining therapies and treatment (not counting pre-hospital medicine which is separated by levels -BLS, ACLS, etc.). Although, life support and life sustaining mean the same thing; the general public doesn't realize this.


This terminology may have only been geared toward organ donation. I'm not sure. IIRC the "new" terminology was developed through a round table that included AOPO (Association of Organ Procurement Organizations), American Medical Association, the American Hospital Association, and other professionals in the early 2000's.

There's a bunch of new words:

Harvest organs=Procurement

Non Heart Beating Donor NHBD)= Donation After Cardiac Death (DCD)

Brain Dead Donor= Deceased Heart Beating Donor

Cadaver bone= Allograft bone



I just listed these for everyone, not directing them to you specifically. I just wanted to share some since there was an opportunity.
 

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WannaBeMaybe

Trusted Member
Ok. So here's a question. Ok. A few. I'm not good at just asking one. Or keeping it simple.

Her heart is being mechanically stimulated to 'beat'?

Her lungs are being mechanically stimulated to 'breath'.

And these 2 things are being done mechanically since her brain is no longer able to produce signals to sustain life. She's dead.

So, as they are pumping liquid into her stomach, what is mechanically stimulating it to create waste? And what is mechanically stimulating her kidneys to do whatever it is they do? Or her body to produce urine? And enable elimination?

And as they are mechanically pumping nutrition into her stomach. What is mechanically stimulating her body to digest the food? And her intestines to do their job and her bowels to do their job? And what is happening to said waste?

Because in my mind, I'm imagining a whole lot being pumped into a big balloon with no manner to escape and eventually something has got to give?

I understand she's dead and has been for a terribly long time. But, what is going on inside? And why are they feeding her if she's dead and how come she ain't exploded yet!

Not trying to sound dumb, really. Just honestly want to know WTF is going on internally. Because I have never heard of a machine that can mechanically digest and eliminate for a dead person.

And if they aren't feeding or hydrating her, and there was the pOssinility of her waking up (I know there isn't, let's just pretend) then won't she re-die of starvation of lack of hydration?
 

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Azryhael

Princess of Putrefaction
Oh, I get the embalming/airtight container thing. I should have been specific to my question. The attorney and family have been using the term "airlifted" as the mode of transportation for transfer. I've only ever heard the term airlifted to mean a helicopter. I was wondering if you or @Azryhael have ever heard the term to be used with fixed wing aircraft.
Teej, I actually have. I had a colleague in Texas whose second job was arranging international medical transport via aeroplane for critical-care patients, most of whom were (at least) unconscious. Fixed-wing aircraft are often used to medevac patients over long distances, and the term "airlifted" is commonly used to describe the transfer of a patient, for example, from Rammstein in Germany back to Walter Reed or Bethesda Naval Hospital in the States.
 

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Azryhael

Princess of Putrefaction
Her heart is being mechanically stimulated to 'beat'?
Cardiac pacing is maintained by the SA node of the heart, so the brain isn't needed to keep the heart beating regularly. No mechanical stimulation such as transcutaneous pacing or an artificial internal pacemaker is necessary at this point to keep her ticker tickin'. She's probably on some vasopressor meds to help the process, too.

Not trying to sound dumb, really. Just honestly want to know WTF is going on internally. Because I have never heard of a machine that can mechanically digest and eliminate for a dead person.
Nutrients that require no real digestion are being given intravenously, and wastes are eliminated primarily via dialysis.

@TeeJay, what's going on with the organs? I know that vasopressors + mechanical ventilation keeps the organs fully functional and viable in the short-term, but what about when it's dragged out indefinitely? Is this whole charade making her organs un-transplantable? I'm sure her selfish family would never actually consider organ donation, but I'm curious anyway.
 

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Krystal

Veteran Member
I'm not saying that I agree with the family but as a mother I can see why this one is fighting to keep the machines on, in a way, although I believe this has gone way past this at this point. With the machine her daughter's body is warm and there is movement with every breath, as a mother I think that if I saw my child like that I couldn't tell them to pull the plug. I fully understand that it isn't just about that fact anymore, I'm just adding my two cents that at one point I think I understood the mother's position, now I clearly don't. Thankfully for me I have a strong family who could hopefully step in and talk sense to me which isn't occurring here.
 

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ASC1

Well-Known Member
You responded to me and I responded back. I'm not sorry you are butthurt over me not agreeing with you. If you haven't noticed there is a conversation occurring, within this thread, in which not all opinions are the same.
Uh huh... I'm the one who needs to be agreed with?
 

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Dakota

FORUM BITCH / Beloved Cunt
Bold Member!
Though Children's Hospital in Oakland has yet to receive formal documentation from the family of a 13-year-old girl declared dead after a tonsillectomy, her family wrote in court papers that they plan to move her to a center in Medford, NY that specializes in traumatic brain injuries.

And on Tuesday, Jahi McMath's attorney, Chris Dolan, told NBC Bay Area that he planned to "confirm today" that the New York state center was still accepting the girl, while at the same time the family "is looking to find a place closer to home." Court filings state this facility is in Arizona.

No one from New Beginnings Community Center answered the phone or email early Tuesday morning. But on the center's website, founder Allyson Scerri describes her center as a "state-of the-art" outpatient facility that helps to rehabilitate people with TBI, neurological disorders, Alzheimer's and dementia.

In a Dec. 29 letter to Dolan, Scerri wrote that she was "aware of Jahi McMath's dire situation and we are willing to open our outpatient facility" to her in a new facility called The Brendan House, which is "near completion." She wrote that she would provide Jahi with nursing staff, licensed respiratory therapists and a pediatrician. Her letter does not address cost, or who will be paying for the services.

Scerri's biography states she owned a beauty salon and then became a"leader in the health field began years ago when she started a support group for women with infertility problems." The site said she opened the center when her father suffered a TBI in a motorcyle accident. Steve Scerri is listed as the vice president of the company; his past business experience includes founding a cemetery center and three self-storage facilities.

Nowhere on the site does the center state it addresses people who have been declared "brain dead," which is the same thing as legal death in the state of California and other states.

Dolan said in court filings (PDF ) on Monday that they hope to move the girl to the center and that they plan to send her there by air ambulance on a private jet from Oakland to Long Island for $27,950. The family has been fundraising to achieve that financial goal. His filings also sought to compel Children's Hospital to put in a tracheostomy tube and gastric feeding tube into Jahi - surgeries the hospital opposes because doctors had previously said they do not perform operations on people that are dead.
[...]

And in court filings presented to Alameda County Superior Court Judge Evelio Grillo before Christmas, Dr. Paul Graham Fisher, Stanford School of Medicine Chief of Pediatric Neurology, wrote that there was "electrocerebral silence," along with no eye movement, no vocalization, no gag reflex and no spinal reflex, among other things listed in his redacted notes (PDF) obtained by NBC Bay Area.

"Overall, unfortunate circumstances in 13-year-old with known, irreversible brain injury and non complete absence of cerebral function and complete absence of brainstem function, child meets all criteria for brain death," Fisher wrote.

However, in Dolan's court findings, he cited the observations of Dr. Paul Byrne of Ohio, a Catholic doctor who does not believe that brain death is "true death," he told NBC Bay Area last week. The court filings say that Byrne does not feel Jahi is dead and that with "proper nutrition and care she can have meaningful recovery to the degree that she would not meet the "brain death" critera.
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Jahi-McMatch-Family-Seeks-Care-at-New-Beginnings-Traumatic-Brain-Injury-Center-in-Medford-NY-238236061.html
 

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stefania

Active Member
I just saw their lawyer on the news. He said "What baffles me is that the hospital says she's dead, but why won't they give us the body?"
They also showed the website of the place they say is accepting Jahi, (after they finish building it, of course).
http://www.nbli.org/

OMG If you click on Dakota's link above, you will see a video of Dr. Byrne and he can explain himself to you. He's from Toledo, Ohio, where he is board certified, associated with a university and head of some foundation to keep brain dead people alive. So, why hasn't he found a facility in his own area to take the girl. He also claims to be Catholic. There are many Catholic hospitals in this country, they're not taking her either. He's a kook, he does not represent Catholics or Christians, so let's not blame them for this.
:eek:
 
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Teleute

Justice Democrat
Bold Member!
Though Children's Hospital in Oakland has yet to receive formal documentation from the family of a 13-year-old girl declared dead after a tonsillectomy, her family wrote in court papers that they plan to move her to a center in Medford, NY that specializes in traumatic brain injuries.
Dolan said in court filings (PDF ) on Monday that they hope to move the girl to the center and that they plan to send her there by air ambulance on a private jet from Oakland to Long Island for $27,950.
So in other words, they plan to illegally move the body? We're looking at the following violations of California state law:

California Health and Safety Code section 7355:
(a) Except as provided in subdivision (b), the bodies of persons who have died from any cause shall not be received for transportation by a common carrier unless the body has been embalmed and prepared by a licensed embalmer and placed in a sound casket and enclosed in a transportation case.

(b) A dead body, which cannot be embalmed or is in a state of decomposition, shall be received for transportation by a common carrier if the body is placed in an airtight metal casket enclosed in a strong transportation case or in a sound casket enclosed in an airtight metal or metal-lined transportation case.
California Health and Safety Code section 754(b):
”every person who deposits or disposes of any human remains in any place, except in a cemetery, is guilty of a misdemeanor.”
California Health and Safety Code section 7055:
(a) Every person, who for himself or herself or for another person... removes any remains, other than cremated remains, from the primary registration district in which the death or incineration occurred or the body was found, except a removal by a funeral director ... without the authority of a burial or removal permit issued by the local registrar... is guilty of a misdemeanor
New York Code Section 4144:
4. When the body of a deceased person is transported from outside of the state into a registration district in this state for burial or other disposition, the transit or removal permit issued in accordance with the law and health regulations of the place where the death occurred shall be given the same force and effect as the burial permit herein provided for.
- See more at: http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/nycode/PBH/41/4/4144#sthash.pow6O68o.dpuf
So let me get this straight... they intend to move a fresh corpse via private carrier without the coroner's approval? I haven't even looked up New York's laws on corpse abuse and improper disposal. @TeeJay : Think we'll see any charges?

However, in Dolan's court findings, he cited the observations of Dr. Paul Byrne of Ohio, a Catholic doctor who does not believe that brain death is "true death," he told NBC Bay Area last week. The court filings say that Byrne does not feel Jahi is dead and that with "proper nutrition and care she can have meaningful recovery to the degree that she would not meet the "brain death" critera.
Are we still talking about the same Paul Byrne who cites 14th century rulings from the Catholic Church as criteria on which to determine death? The same Paul Byrne who specializes in neonatology opposed to neurology... the same Paul Byrne who has yet to even examine the body?
 

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Teleute

Justice Democrat
Bold Member!
I just saw their lawyer on the news. He said "What baffles me is that the hospital says she's dead, but why won't they give us the body?"
They won't hand over the body because the family hasn't taken any necessary steps to move the body. I feel like I need to hit something.
 
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China

La Mera Mera
Scerri's biography states she owned a beauty salon and then became a"leader in the health field began years ago when she started a support group for women with infertility problems
Um yea ok...from cutting hair to a leader in the Health care field...where are her degrees:wait:
 

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TeeJay

Well-Known Member
Ok. So here's a question. Ok. A few. I'm not good at just asking one. Or keeping it simple.

Her heart is being mechanically stimulated to 'beat'?

Her lungs are being mechanically stimulated to 'breath'.

And these 2 things are being done mechanically since her brain is no longer able to produce signals to sustain life. She's dead.

So, as they are pumping liquid into her stomach, what is mechanically stimulating it to create waste? And what is mechanically stimulating her kidneys to do whatever it is they do? Or her body to produce urine? And enable elimination?

And as they are mechanically pumping nutrition into her stomach. What is mechanically stimulating her body to digest the food? And her intestines to do their job and her bowels to do their job? And what is happening to said waste?

Because in my mind, I'm imagining a whole lot being pumped into a big balloon with no manner to escape and eventually something has got to give?

I understand she's dead and has been for a terribly long time. But, what is going on inside? And why are they feeding her if she's dead and how come she ain't exploded yet!

Not trying to sound dumb, really. Just honestly want to know WTF is going on internally. Because I have never heard of a machine that can mechanically digest and eliminate for a dead person.

And if they aren't feeding or hydrating her, and there was the pOssinility of her waking up (I know there isn't, let's just pretend) then won't she re-die of starvation of lack of hydration?
Technically, yes, her heart is being mechanically stimulated if you consider the oxygen being perfused to the heart. As Azryhael explained, the heart has it's own electrical system and does not need the brain to function; it needs oxygen. So, the mechanical ventilator is providing the oxygen needed. Take the vent away and the heart will stop once it has depleted the oxygen. This is why a heart can be removed from the body and still beat for several seconds.

She is on vasopressin, which I found in Dr. Fischer's consultation report. His writing kind of sucks though. lol The vasopressin helps control homeostasis and is vital in kidney and cardiac function. This is why her vital signs appear stable. Take away the vasopressin and her blood pressure will drop and possibly quit. The vasopressin is a vasoconstricter, which means it makes your blood vessels tighter and that makes your blood pressure go up. If there is no vasopressin then her blood vessels will dilate and the blood pressure will drop. The dilation causes less volume within the vessels. (ugh, I hope I'm explaining this well enough to make sense. I hope I haven't confused the fuck out of everyone.) The vasopressin also assists in kidney function. It helps the body absorb fluid and excrete wastes and allows the kidneys to function properly.

She doesn't have a feeding tube so she probably isn't pooping. She might be sharting a little, like a wet fart, but she isn't pooping.

She's probably given fluids through IVs that are then absorbed and eliminated as urine. She may start to show signs of malnourishment though, because fluids can only go so far.

Cardiac pacing is maintained by the SA node of the heart, so the brain isn't needed to keep the heart beating regularly. No mechanical stimulation such as transcutaneous pacing or an artificial internal pacemaker is necessary at this point to keep her ticker tickin'. She's probably on some vasopressor meds to help the process, too.



Nutrients that require no real digestion are being given intravenously, and wastes are eliminated primarily via dialysis.

@TeeJay, what's going on with the organs? I know that vasopressors + mechanical ventilation keeps the organs fully functional and viable in the short-term, but what about when it's dragged out indefinitely? Is this whole charade making her organs un-transplantable? I'm sure her selfish family would never actually consider organ donation, but I'm curious anyway.
Yeah, she is on vasopressin according to Dr. Fischer's consult. It has seemed to work on pregnant women who have been brain dead and incubated a fetus long term (but they are being provided all life sustaining measures needed to incubate). I think it probably depends on COD; traumatic brain injury vs. traumatic bodily injury, but I'm not positive. It is difficult to manage a dead body short term, so long term must be down right hell. Plus, this girl is not receiving any other life sustaining therapies that was not court ordered. I think her organs will start to show failure as is already apparent with the vasopressin. She isn't receiving electrolytes to balance pH levels and homeostasis, dopamine (which is tricky with vasopressin), or other hormones and therapies. She's also not having routine blood labs to determine what therapeutic levels are needed.

I would expect organ failure to occur and her organs will be unsuitable for donation. Once she is moved to what ever facility they will start to provide all the life sustaining therapies needed to maintain the corpse. Once her heart stops she won't be eligible for organ donation anyway.

I just saw their lawyer on the news. He said "What baffles me is that the hospital says she's dead, but why won't they give us the body?"
They also showed the website of the place they say is accepting Jahi, (after they finish building it, of course).
http://www.nbli.org/

OMG If you click on Dakota's link above, you will see a video of Dr. Byrne and he can explain himself to you. He's from Toledo, Ohio, where he is board certified, associated with a university and head of some foundation to keep brain dead people alive. So, why hasn't he found a facility in his own area to take the girl. He also claims to be Catholic. There are many Catholic hospitals in this country, they're not taking her either. He's a kook, he does not represent Catholics or Christians, so let's not blame them for this.
:eek:

Or most doctors. He is definitely in the minority.
 

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Dakota

FORUM BITCH / Beloved Cunt
Bold Member!
It may seem unlikely but there is a chance a 13-year-old California girl declared brain dead after suffering complications following a routine tonsillectomy could recover.

At least, that's what doctors with a New York-based neurological foundation believe.


Dr. Jonathan Fellus, the chief medical officer with the International Brain Research Foundation, a nonprofit group that specializes in treating coma patients and claims to have helped hundreds of people deemed brain dead awaken from comas, is in California to assist Jahi McMath's family.

The young girl slipped into a coma on Dec. 9. Her family has battled the hospital now for weeks in a desperate attempt to keep her on life support.

Fellus' goal is to help determine if the young girl can achieve some kind of recovery.

Although he has yet to examine her personally at Children's Hospital in Oakland, he is expected to be there Tuesday and said he has already looked over her records.

"We need to examine her further," IBRF Chief Executive Officer Dr. Philip Defina told the Daily News on Tuesday. "There is hope."

What Jahi needs, he noted, was more time.

"Why wouldn't you want to examine it further?" he said. "Why do we want to jump ahead and pull the plug on this 13-year-old girl who may have a chance to recover?"
[...]

Fellus told The News she needs to spend more time in the hospital to recover from her cardiac arrest and to determine if she could wake from the coma. He said her young age and that she suffered the cardiac arrest in a hospital and was quickly treated are both positive factors that favor possible recovery.

"Basically we need the dust to settle," he said. "It's difficult to see a clear picture [in a patient's brain after a cardiac arrest]. It's still not a clear picture."

These doctors, who are handling the case pro-bono, are also challenging the status-quo definition of brain dead in the medical field and what it really means for the patient.

“Most radically spectacular things were (once) considered impossible," Fellus said. "That means you have to start somewhere.”

Defina said that the legal definition of brain dead was coined in the 1960s and that there is a debate in the neurological community as to whether someone who meets these possibly outdated criteria — based on the technology of the day — can still recover.

"There are a lot of empirical problems with technology as archaic as that," he said.

Defina admits his theories are not universally accepted and that there is skepticism about his ideas in the medical community. Some of his methods, which include additional testing and consultations with experts, are also not covered under many insurance plans.

Fellus has said that when a patient is declared brain dead "the machine is unstoppable" and they almost always are taken off life support. But there are examples of cases in which the patient can still recover.

There have also been cases in which a patient has signs of brain activity, but it's suppressed because the individual was given a high levels of drugs, Defina said.

That said, Defina can’t speculate further about Jahi’s possible recovery, saying at this point it would just be "guess work."

"No one can make that determination today," he said. "You want to err on the side of caution and not take away a life. You want to give her a few weeks and see if she responds."

So far, Jahi has shown some signs of responding. Specifically, Defina said he's been told by the family's attorney Chris Dolan that she has made movements when her parents speak to her.

Defina rejects any claims these movements are an involuntary muscle reflex, claiming the movements are only done when she hears her parents' voice.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/new-york-doctors-urge-hope-brain-dead-jahi-mcmath-article-1.1562427
 

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TeeJay

Well-Known Member
Teej, I actually have. I had a colleague in Texas whose second job was arranging international medical transport via aeroplane for critical-care patients, most of whom were (at least) unconscious. Fixed-wing aircraft are often used to medevac patients over long distances, and the term "airlifted" is commonly used to describe the transfer of a patient, for example, from Rammstein in Germany back to Walter Reed or Bethesda Naval Hospital in the States.
Thanks! Maybe it is a regional thing? I've always heard/used airlift to mean medevac by bird. Even medevac is by bird and not plane in my experience. That's why I was inquiring. I wasn't sure if the family and lawyer were playing word games again.

So in other words, they plan to illegally move the body? We're looking at the following violations of California state law:

California Health and Safety Code section 7355:


California Health and Safety Code section 754(b):


California Health and Safety Code section 7055:


New York Code Section 4144:


So let me get this straight... they intend to move a fresh corpse via private carrier without the coroner's approval? I haven't even looked up New York's laws on corpse abuse and improper disposal. @TeeJay : Think we'll see any charges?



Are we still talking about the same Paul Byrne who cites 14th century rulings from the Catholic Church as criteria on which to determine death? The same Paul Byrne who specializes in neonatology opposed to neurology... the same Paul Byrne who has yet to even examine the body?
I don't understand why these laws have not been brought up so things can just end. Why aren't they pulling out the big guns now with this new court order?! UGH!:mad:

No, I don't think we will see any charges. :mad::mad:

Yes, same Paul Byrne. I read an article where he "observed" the body. He probably had the family speak to and touch Jahi and that is where he is coming up with how she is "responding."



Another doctor who doesn't understand brain death vs. coma and this is why people think people can wake up. Coma is not brain dead.


he said. "Why do we want to jump ahead and pull the plug on this 13-year-old girl who may have a chance to recover?"
[...]

Fellus told The News she needs to spend more time in the hospital to recover from her cardiac arrest and to determine if she could wake from the coma. He said her young age and that she suffered the cardiac arrest in a hospital and was quickly treated are both positive factors that favor possible recovery.

Because SIX doctors have already examined her and determined she is dead.




People in comas can recover. Brain death testing IS NOT performed with drugs on board. That is why it may take a couple of days with the patient on the ventilator before brain death testing is completed. Ever heard a story about how someone was "brought out" of their coma so they could check neurological function?



http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/new-york-doctors-urge-hope-brain-dead-jahi-mcmath-article-1.1562427[/quote]
 

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China

La Mera Mera
So far, Jahi has shown some signs of responding. Specifically, Defina said he's been told by the family's attorney Chris Dolan that she has made movements when her parents speak to her.

Where is the video?!!?:wait:
If that was my little girl and she moved when I called her name I would plaster that shit all over the place..better yet, live feed...they need to put out or Shut up.

This is turing into a he said they said circus. Just show the video and prove everyone wrong or accept that there is nothing that can bring her back.
 

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stefania

Active Member
Dr. Jonathan Fellus, the chief medical officer with the International Brain Research Foundation, a nonprofit group that specializes in treating coma patients and claims to have helped hundreds of people deemed brain dead awaken from comas, is in California to assist Jahi McMath's family.
http://www.ibrfinc.org/index.htm
Dr. Fellus (who hasn't examined Jahi yet) is with UMDNJ. The University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey was totally up the to minute in infertility treatments when I needed them back in the 80's. So, IMO this guy has excellent credentials. The website doesn't state anything about treating brain dead people. I hope, maybe, he'll bring an end to this nonsense.
 

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Dakota

FORUM BITCH / Beloved Cunt
Bold Member!
The girl's uncle told reporters Monday that Jahi moves when her mother speaks and touches her. Sealey also said that a pediatrician has seen Jahi and has sworn she is not dead.

When asked about the girl's possible movement, the hospital spokesman, citing privacy laws, said he would not comment directly on any claims the family makes.

However, Singer said it is "quite common" for the muscles of brain-dead patients to move, stressing it's "not a sign of life."
http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/30/health/jahi-mcmath-girl-brain-dead/

This article is from Jan. 13, 2000: Spontaneous Movements Often Occur After Brain Death
Many brain-dead patients have spontaneous movements such as jerking of fingers or bending of toes that can be disturbing to family members and health care professionals and even cause them to question the brain-death diagnosis. These movements occur in 39 percent of brain-dead patients, according to a study published in the January 11 issue of Neurology, the scientific journal of the American Academy of Neurology.
[...]

Some of the movements occurred spontaneously; others were triggered by touch. Examiners used tests designed to elicit motor movements, such as lifting the arms or legs or touching the palm of the hand.

Electroencephalogram (EEG) tests did not show any brain activity in any of the patients with movements.

“If the lack of understanding of these movements leads to a delay in the brain death diagnosis or questions about the diagnosis afterwards, there can be important practical and legal implications, especially for organ procurement for transplantation,” Bueri said. “Family members and others need to understand that these movements originate in the spinal cord, not in the brain, and their presence does not mean that there is brain activity.

One of the most startling movements for family members and health care professionals is called the ‘Lazarus sign.’ It is a sequence of movements lasting for a few seconds that can occur in some brain dead patients, either spontaneously or right after the ventilator is disconnected,” Bueri said. It is named for the episode in the Bible where Lazarus is raised from the dead.

“It starts with stretching of the arms, followed by crossing or touching of the arms on the chest, and finally falling of the arms alongside the torso,” he said. “It is also a spinal reflex, but it can be disturbing to family members and others who see this.”

Another article in this issue of Neurology describes unusual movements in two brain dead patients. The movements occurred in a 30-year-old woman and an 11-month-old baby at a hospital in Barcelona, Spain. Both patients extended their arms, flexed their wrists and curled up their fingers each time the mechanical ventilator inflated their lungs. The movements stopped after the patients were disconnected from the ventilator.

“We had never seen these type of movements before, and they hadn‘t been reported in the medical journals,” said neurologist Joan Martí-Fàbregas, MD, PhD, of the Hospital de la Santa Creu i Sant Pau.

The doctors conducted additional tests and confirmed that there was no brain activity. “The living cells that were ordering these muscles to move were not brain cells or brain stem cells, but cells located in the spinal cord,” he said. “It‘s important for family members and health care professionals to be aware of this possibility.”
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/01/000113080008.htm
 

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Azryhael

Princess of Putrefaction
I have personally witnessed the Lazarus sign in several ICU patients who were taken off their mechanical ventilation. The first time was when I was a lowly candy-striper in high school, and I was certainly shocked and a bit frightened. The charge nurse explained to me that the motor neurons just hadn't gotten the memo that their time of purpose was over.

I can understand how a grieving family could believe that such a reflex action is a sign of life, but it isn't. It's like when you cut the head off a snake; the body will still twitch until the motor neurons run out of juice, but the snake ain't alive.
 

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