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Teleute

Justice Democrat
Bold Member!
Anyone who remains sympathetic after reading the hospital's statement must have a few screws loose:

To date, there has been no communication from any facility named by you regarding a transfer or requirements for transfer with any of the medical professionals at Children's. The family has not identified any facility with which Children's can have this dialogue. Nor have we been provided with a transportation plan or coroner authorization.
 
Last edited:

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Azryhael

Princess of Putrefaction
Hopefully, by this time tomorrow the ventilators will be turned off and that poor girl's body can finally be examined by the coroner, although any evidence has likely vanished during the three-week farce put on by her family.

I hope she gets cremated (which is not something I often say, but in this case I think it's the only way she'd be allowed to rest in peace instead of in pieces), but I'm sure that her greedy family will want her embalmed to the max in order to make future exhumations more likely to be profitable.

Once they're forced to accept she's dead, they'll continue the blame game ad nauseam...
 

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Deja

Veteran Member
Bold Member!
I hope they use the $20K for a lovely funeral for the poor girl. It's very disturbing to read the hospital referring to her as 'the deceased' and 'the body' while the mother is still searching for a place to care for her. She has lost her grip and reality is gonna hit hard when it hits. As far as praying for her, this isn't a coma she may come out of, it's a dead child who cannot rest in peace until her family lets her.
 

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TeeJay

Well-Known Member
Anyone who remains sympathetic after reading the hospital's statement must have a few screws loose:
I agree with you 100% and also regarding lining the pockets. I don't think it started out that way, but I think they are losing focus at this point as to why they started out fighting.
Hopefully, by this time tomorrow the ventilators will be turned off and that poor girl's body can finally be examined by the coroner, although any evidence has likely vanished during the three-week farce put on by her family.

I hope she gets cremated (which is not something I often say, but in this case I think it's the only way she'd be allowed to rest in peace instead of in pieces), but I'm sure that her greedy family will want her embalmed to the max in order to make future exhumations more likely to be profitable.

Once they're forced to accept she's dead, they'll continue the blame game ad nauseam...
I also 100% agree with this. If they don't cremate her they need to just place her in a mausoleum so she doesn't have to be dug up all the time.

I hope they use the $20K for a lovely funeral for the poor girl. It's very disturbing to read the hospital referring to her as 'the deceased' and 'the body' while the mother is still searching for a place to care for her. She has lost her grip and reality is gonna hit hard when it hits. As far as praying for her, this isn't a coma she may come out of, it's a dead child who cannot rest in peace until her family lets her.

I think they should have to give the money back as it was solicited to airlift Jahi. If the donors don't mind the money going to other things, I'm ok with that, too, but I do think the donors should have a say in it since the money was solicited for the airlift.

Also, I think it's appropriate for the hospital to refer to jahi as the deceased and the body because that's what she is. It also brings finalization to the situation and may bring the family back to reality (I doubt it). It's also PR. They need the public to know that Jahi is dead.
 

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Deja

Veteran Member
Bold Member!
Also, I think it's appropriate for the hospital to refer to jahi as the deceased and the body because that's what she is. It also brings finalization to the situation and may bring the family back to reality (I doubt it). It's also PR. They need the public to know that Jahi is dead.
I totally agree, TeeJay, I was just saying that even the hospitals refer to Jahi as deceased, it's her mother that is in denial.
 

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DevilDoll

Active Member
From the shares and posts on fb people really are portraying the hospital as a bunch of heartless villains that want to take this poor live girl off of life support.
They have to reiterate that she is not alive.
The only person that I feel bad for at this point is Jahi.
 

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TeeJay

Well-Known Member
I totally agree, TeeJay, I was just saying that even the hospitals refer to Jahi as deceased, it's her mother that is in denial.
Oh yeah, although, I am starting to wonder if her mother is actually in denial anymore.
From the shares and posts on fb people really are portraying the hospital as a bunch of heartless villains that want to take this poor live girl off of life support.
They have to reiterate that she is not alive.
The only person that I feel bad for at this point is Jahi.
I haven't seen any FB posts yet. I may have to delete people if I start seeing them.

I feel horrible for Jahi, but I have absolutely no sympathy left for the rest of the family.
 

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DevilDoll

Active Member
I haven't seen any FB posts yet. I may have to delete people if I start seeing them.
It is basically people praying for her to heal. Vilifying the hospital, and NOT knowing the whole story. I hid the persons feed. I actually like her so I don't want to delete her. LOL
 

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Azryhael

Princess of Putrefaction
I also 100% agree with this. If they don't cremate her they need to just place her in a mausoleum so she doesn't have to be dug up all the time.
I don't even really think they're even grieving anymore. Colour me cynical, but I think that the family is just posturing in an attempt to claim a ridiculously huge amount of money for emotional pain and suffering from whoever they can possibly sue for Jahi's death.

I'm not going to say that the family somehow knew that Jahi might suffer complications, but I will say that on some level they're downright glad to have an excuse to sue somebody, and they're gonna milk it for all it's worth. They're not happy that she's dead, by any means, but the idea of bajillions of dollars in free money in return for one less kid goes a long way toward erasing any sorrow they feel...
 

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mopar

Active Member
Many have been charged with crimes for "faith healing" children that died. I am sure that corpse violations would lead to charges as well.
 

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TeeJay

Well-Known Member
It is basically people praying for her to heal. Vilifying the hospital, and NOT knowing the whole story. I hid the persons feed. I actually like her so I don't want to delete her. LOL
I've read some of the comments on a few of the articles so I can imagine. People claiming they know someone or bringing up other articles about people who were "basically brain dead" and woke up from their coma. :banghead:

I'm glad the hospital made a statement in regards to them lying about the LTC facilities. They also made the one comment that it was not a simple tonsillectomy. The family has the upper hand because they will not allow the hospital to speak freely.

I don't even really think they're even grieving anymore. Colour me cynical, but I think that the family is just posturing in an attempt to claim a ridiculously huge amount of money for emotional pain and suffering from whoever they can possibly sue for Jahi's death.

I'm not going to say that the family somehow knew that Jahi might suffer complications, but I will say that on some level they're downright glad to have an excuse to sue somebody, and they're gonna milk it for all it's worth. They're not happy that she's dead, by any means, but the idea of bajillions of dollars in free money in return for one less kid goes a long way toward erasing any sorrow they feel...
I think it started out with the family not understanding the situation, but I agree with you that I think they are milking people and playing at their heart strings. It's disgusting.

Many have been charged with crimes for "faith healing" children that died. I am sure that corpse violations would lead to charges as well.
I'm wondering if the appropriate organizations are aware and have not spoke up because they are just biding their time. If the 5pm deadline comes about and Jahi is discontinued from the ventilator they won't have to speak up. If they are able to find a transfer service and another facility to take Jahi maybe they will speak up at that time.
 

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Teleute

Justice Democrat
Bold Member!
From the shares and posts on fb people really are portraying the hospital as a bunch of heartless villains that want to take this poor live girl off of life support.
They have to reiterate that she is not alive.
The only person that I feel bad for at this point is Jahi.
I haven't seen anything on Facebook, but I wanted to reach though the computer screen to strangle a few idiots on Mommyish today. I am absolutely astonished by the vast number of people who cannot differentiate between death and a medical condition. I eventually gave up trying to provide the facts; you just can't get through to some people.

One person asked me, "Why are you so angry about this topic? Everyone else here (for the most part) has been offering up thoughtful, compassionate suggestions."

This was my response:
I'm astonished by the stupidity involved, and the inability to differentiate between a corpse and someone with a medical condition. She isn't distraught; this woman has set up a GoFundMe account to make money off of her child's demise. She's been making claims every step of the way about her progress in finding a facility to "care" for the body, yet the hospital has just released a statement affirming that she has yet to identify "any facility with which Children's can have this dialogue." Furthermore, she hasn't taken the necessary steps to secure coroner authorization, which is a prerequisite for the body being transferred anywhere.

She's continuing to lie on the GoFundMe page, claiming today that yet another facility has backed out because of Children's Hospital's "interference." And as for the whole "airlift" scenario, which was her premise for starting the $20k fundraiser to begin with? Only the hospital or a mortuary can legally transport the body without it embalmed or stored in an airtight container, and they've already made it quite clear that she is to arrange her own transportation.

That $20k isn't going anywhere but Mom's pockets. My question to you is, how can this NOT make you angry?
The response I got was that I had no business judging a grieving mother.

I feel like I'm having PTSD flashbacks to the Terry Schiavo case. Schiavo had been in a persistent vegetative state for fifteen years before her feeding tube was finally removed and she was allowed to die. But if you had told me eight years ago that we'd be debating whether a dead person should be removed from life support, I would have told you that you were out of your fucking mind.
 

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Teleute

Justice Democrat
Bold Member!
Hey, I just caught something from the day the GoFundMe fund was started:


"The hospital my daughter was going to be lifted to." Yet the family had repeatedly claimed that the body was going to be transferred to a nursing home. This is a crucial distinction to make! I don't think this is simply a matter of Mom confusing the two, because by claiming that it was a hospital, the fund could be seen as legitimate. As we've already discussed, Californian hospitals can transport non-embalmed corpses, but nursing facilities cannot. I wouldn't be surprised if the family's attorney advised her to refer to it as a hospital.
 

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TeeJay

Well-Known Member
I haven't seen anything on Facebook, but I wanted to reach though the computer screen to strangle a few idiots on Mommyish today. I am absolutely astonished by the vast number of people who cannot differentiate between death and a medical condition. I eventually gave up trying to provide the facts; you just can't get through to some people.

One person asked me, "Why are you so angry about this topic? Everyone else here (for the most part) has been offering up thoughtful, compassionate suggestions."

This was my response:


The response I got was that I had no business judging a grieving mother.

I feel like I'm having PTSD flashbacks to the Terry Schiavo case. Schiavo had been in a persistent vegetative state for fifteen years before her feeding tube was finally removed and she was allowed to die. But if you had told me eight years ago that we'd be debating whether a dead person should be removed from life support, I would have told you that you were out of your fucking mind.
I can't believe the people who continue to find stories about people waking up from their brain dead coma vegetative state on the operating room table while their appendix is being stolen and going on to lead normal lives. I'm losing brain function just reading this shit.

This is an excellent article from a neurologist. It's written very simply and very good. Perhaps you can share it with the tards on Mommyish.

I can't tell you how many times I have read the article the neurologist is speaking of and how many times I have to remind the person "proving" to me that brain dead people wake up, that this kid WAS NEVER DECLARED BRAIN DEAD.

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/02/nobody-declared-brain-dead-ever-wakes-up-feeling-pretty-good/253315/

I recently read an article that seemed to describe a man on death row in Huntsville, Texas. It attempted to shock its readers with the claim that a college student had been declared brain dead and "just hours before he was slated to be killed and his organs given to another patient," he miraculously recovered. That's right, they said "killed."

As a neurologist who specializes in brain injury, I have cared for many brain-injured patients and there were times when they did better than I anticipated, but sensational articles like these only confuse the public.

A patient may have their eyes open and look like they're awake, but if the brain is severely damaged they may have no awareness of their surroundings. We call this a vegetative state.

On the other hand, people who are in a coma are not awake and have no awareness of themselves or their environment. You can talk to them, pinch them, show them pictures of their family -- they will not respond.

However, these patients are not brain dead. This is the source of the confusion that leads to the sensational headlines and stories.


No one who has met the criteria for brain death has ever survived -- no one.

Hey, I just caught something from the day the GoFundMe fund was started:


"The hospital my daughter was going to be lifted to." Yet the family had repeatedly claimed that the body was going to be transferred to a nursing home. This is a crucial distinction to make! I don't think this is simply a matter of Mom confusing the two, because by claiming that it was a hospital, the fund could be seen as legitimate. As we've already discussed, Californian hospitals can transport non-embalmed corpses, but nursing facilities cannot. I wouldn't be surprised if the family's attorney advised her to refer to it as a hospital.

I noticed that part, too, but figured it's because they are tards. You make an excellent point though. Also, wasn't the 27th on Friday? Did the supposed LTC facility back out on Friday? Because I thought it was Saturday. I could be mistaken, but I really thought they backed out on Saturday.
 

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Teleute

Justice Democrat
Bold Member!
This is an excellent article from a neurologist. It's written very simply and very good. Perhaps you can share it with the tards on Mommyish.
Thanks, but I'm through with those idiots. They defended the Russian woman who forced her kids to take care of their father's corpse for three years on the grounds that it is hard to lose a loved one, it's not like she was hurting anyone, and "who are we to judge?"

I noticed that part, too, but figured it's because they are tards. You make an excellent point though. Also, wasn't the 27th on Friday? Did the supposed LTC facility back out on Friday? Because I thought it was Saturday. I could be mistaken, but I really thought they backed out on Saturday.
The first one backed out on Friday, and the second backed out on Sunday. At this point, I'm convinced Mom's either been lying about the three facilities or else she lied to the facilities about her daughter's condition, which would account for why two of them have backed out and why she doesn't want the hospital in contact with any of them. We already know she's lied about the following:

1. the operation being a routine tonsillectomy

2. the plan to airlift the corpse to that first facility

3. Children's Hospital actively interfering with the transfer

4. what she plans to do with the GoFundMe money.

5. she's almost certainly lying about long-term care for a corpse being covered by insurance

At this point, I think Mom is just looking for attention and to cash in on her daughter's corpse. She's upset about the death of her daughter and feels she deserves recompense. She exhibits a pattern of lashing out against the very people who are trying to help her: accusing the doctors of insensitivity and essentially killing her daughter, conning benevolent morons out of more than $20k, and I'm now convinced that she's simply trolling Children's Hospital as a means of punishing them for the girl's death:
“They have not given me a reason yet of why she went into cardiac arrest. They haven’t even given me a reason for her bleeding. They haven’t given me a reason that they couldn’t stop the bleeding,” she said. “The only thing they keep pushing for me is to get her off their ventilator.
Because you won't let them do an autopsy, you fucking moron!
 

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TeeJay

Well-Known Member
Thanks, but I'm through with those idiots. They defended the Russian woman who forced her kids to take care of their father's corpse for three years on the grounds that it is hard to lose a loved one, it's not like she was hurting anyone, and "who are we to judge?"
I don't blame you. It's a great article, though, so everyone should read it! :)



The first one backed out on Friday, and the second backed out on Sunday. At this point, I'm convinced Mom's either been lying about the three facilities or else she lied to the facilities about her daughter's condition, which would account for why two of them have backed out and why she doesn't want the hospital in contact with any of them.
Ok. I thought maybe she started the GoFundMe before the first facility backed out. I get my days confused so I really wasn't sure of myself with that. I also don't believe there was ever a facility willing to take the body.

We already know she's lied about the following:

1. the operation being a routine tonsillectomy

2. the plan to airlift the corpse to that first facility

3. Children's Hospital actively interfering with the transfer

4. what she plans to do with the GoFundMe money.

5. she's almost certainly lying about long-term care for a corpse being covered by insurance

At this point, I think Mom is just looking for attention and to cash in on her daughter's corpse. She's upset about the death of her daughter and feels she deserves recompense. She exhibits a pattern of lashing out against the very people who are trying to help her: accusing the doctors of insensitivity and essentially killing her daughter, conning benevolent morons out of more than $20k, and I'm now convinced that she's simply trolling Children's Hospital as a means of punishing them for the girl's death:


Because you won't let them do an autopsy, you fucking moron!

100% agreed!
 

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Teleute

Justice Democrat
Bold Member!
Ok. I thought maybe she started the GoFundMe before the first facility backed out. I get my days confused so I really wasn't sure of myself with that. I also don't believe there was ever a facility willing to take the body.
Friday the 27th was a busy day. Timetable:

1. The hospital agreed to a transfer, provided three prerequisites were met:
(a) Mom had to identify a facility that was willing to take the corpse (which she has yet to do)
(b) Mom had to arrange transport for the corpse (which she has yet to do, but which is virtually impossible anyway)
(c) Mom had to contact the coroner's office to obtain a permit (A LEGAL REQUIREMENT which she has yet to fulfill.)

2. The first facility -- which had only agreed to accept the corpse the day before -- backed out.

3. Mom started the GoFundMe page, completely fabricating the tale of air transport having been previously arranged.
 

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TeeJay

Well-Known Member
Friday the 27th was a busy day. Timetable:

1. The hospital agreed to a transfer, provided three prerequisites were met:
(a) Mom had to identify a facility that was willing to take the corpse (which she has yet to do)
(b) Mom had to arrange transport for the corpse (which she has yet to do, but which is virtually impossible anyway)
(c) Mom had to contact the coroner's office to obtain a permit (A LEGAL REQUIREMENT which she has yet to fulfill.)

2. The first facility -- which had only agreed to accept the corpse the day before -- backed out.

3. Mom started the GoFundMe page, completely fabricating the tale of air transport having been previously arranged.

Thanks!

I wonder if they have applied for any permits. I doubt they have. They probably haven't checked the laws regarding transporting a dead body.

Man, 5pm can't come quick enough.

Although, I'm sure their lawyer is working up something disgusting to appeal the courts with.
 

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Teleute

Justice Democrat
Bold Member!
A Los Angeles-area long-term care facility that had been willing to accept Jahi McMath has withdrawn its offer, leaving a New York hospital as the only apparent option for the brain-dead girl as a 5 p.m. Monday deadline to remove her from a ventilator approaches, her mother and attorney said Sunday.

[...]

That leaves an unnamed New York hospital "as our last, last hope," Jahi's lawyer, Christopher Dolan, said. The facility is run by an "organization that believes in life," Dolan told The Associated Press.

But in a statement issued Sunday, a spokeswoman for Children's Hospital Oakland said its doctors said no one from any other medical organization has been in contact with it to discuss a transfer of the 13-year-old.

"Our physicians have yet to receive a single call or message from the facility under consideration," Cynthia Chiarappa wrote. "We have been waiting since Friday -- when we were first told by the family lawyer of a potential facility that might accept the body of Jahi -- for a call from a physician to discuss with our medical staff what may be necessary to transfer the deceased."

Dolan said the unnamed Los Angeles-area facility withdrew its offer because it didn't want media attention or to jeopardize its relationship with its doctors, who refused to treat someone who's been declared brain dead.

As Jahi's family prepared for a Sunday afternoon fundraiser at an Oakland church to help pay for a possible airlift, it remained unclear what will happen in the hours ahead.

[...]

READ MORE: http://www.mercurynews.com/california/ci_24812585/jahi-mcmath-mom-and-lawyer-say-only-remaining
SHE'S AFTER MORE MONEY?! She's already managed to raise $21,986 in two days!! :greedy:
 

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Sudonim

Trusted Member
I almost wonder if it's not the lawyer messing with the family's minds. Telling them half truths in order to keep his job and their hopes up. When you hire someone to represent you a lot of the times it's them in the official talks and meetings, you just fill out the paper work needed and sign their paycheck. More then likely the lawyer is dealing with the care facilities and the family is taking his word on what transpires.

He's their go between that's setting everything up. Why hasn't he at least tried to get the transport and coroners ok done while finding a place for her? Even if they find a place today, its to late. They won't have time to get the other paper work that they need done. If this was a serious option..he would have had it all in order and ready to go as soon as they found a facility ready to accept her. He's the one who keeps making press statements that are easily discounted and the family just seems to be taking his word on it. Either that or they are in on it with him. Kinda hoping they are just as stupidly gullible as they are irrational and that they aren't using their dead daughter as a cash cow on purpose.

I'd say I'm counting down to 5pm to see what happens, but I know what will happen. They will turn off the vent because no one will take her body. What I really want to see won't happen till tomorrow or the next few weeks. I want to see if the family is going to let this die down and out of the public eye, or if this is going to become a huge legal battle. I want to see how much they sue for (because we all know they will) and what kinds of precedents will be set about life support and brain dead patients. Most of all, I'm hoping to eventually be able to see the hospitals side come out.
 

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TeeJay

Well-Known Member
The lawyer is supposedly working for free and will not represent them in any lawsuits. I read that somewhere. If he is working for free he's definitely doing it for the publicity to increase his own clientele. I think he's using this family for his own personal gain. I think, at first, he may have been trying to help them because he didn't understand the circumstances and once the story made global headlines he started running with it.

It's 5 o'clock somewhere.
 

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ASC1

Well-Known Member
No one is having a say on how this girl is going to die. The God you spoke of in your post already did that. She's already dead. That's the whole point of this case. SHE'S DEAD. This is not end of life care. Let me repeat, the girl is dead.
I have never, on this site, or any other, expressed religious beliefs in a god. Do not hang that crap on me. That's someone elses bag. Namely, the family, and other people.. but not me. Be careful what you reference. No god spoke on anything. Again, I believe in Science and I believe that our consciousness of such is constantly changing, and that mostly those brave enough to be called crazy by everyone around them will ever find anything "new". Don't drag me into god bs.
 

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TeeJay

Well-Known Member
yeah.. I think I've been pretty clear. There isn't a law being broken, and there are businesses willing to take the husk.. we can judge all we want, but in the end, we don't deserve a say in how someone else doesn't live and doesn't die. That's for her family and whatever businesses want to become involved.

I will address the American part.. we are free.. businesses are free to do as they please if not breaking the law. In the face of having no law to address this, people and courts should butt out till there is one, and really.. this would resolve itself. I don't think there are numerous people who will all of a sudden find the financial windfall to make this the new trending thing to do.

And others in this situation would learn from her mistake and disappointment anyway. But there are people pushing boundries all the time, and who are we to tell them not to push. And I get that this is brain death and it's all impossible etc.. but wouldn't you shit your pants if someone did something and she woke up..? What happens if our reasoning behind that is proven wrong somewhere down the line. 10 years ago people didn't wake up from being frozen.. now they are using lowering a body temperature to preserve people with brain injuries... I'm just saying.. you aren't a god, I don't believe in those anyway, and you don't know all or see all. No one can.. and while I do believe in science, I also believe it is constantly changing. if she wants to push this issue and be the one who has to learn the hard way that science knows what it knows, let it happen... others would learn too.

And as for abuse of corpse, there's already a huge business in that called cryogenics. And we don't tell them not to do it.. even though it's crazy! We mostly say the same thing to them that I'm saying here.. let them that can, do.
I have never, on this site, or any other, expressed religious beliefs in a god. Do not hang that crap on me. That's someone elses bag. Namely, the family, and other people.. but not me. Be careful what you reference. No god spoke on anything. Again, I believe in Science and I believe that our consciousness of such is constantly changing, and that mostly those brave enough to be called crazy by everyone around them will ever find anything "new". Don't drag me into god bs.
See your previous post I included in this post. What exactly do I need to be careful of? I only responded to your post where YOU referenced a God. Whether or not you believe in it, YOU referenced it and I responded. If you don't believe in a God why did you say I am not one? That's a contradiction that came directly from your fingertips.

You're the one who brought it up and dragged yourself into the God BS.

Good day to you, please and thank you! (drops mic)

:cigar:
 

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ASC1

Well-Known Member
You're the one who brought it up and dragged yourself into the God BS.
You apparently don't get where it's not capitalized. I reference it in case you think you are one. You seem to think you know all.. isn't that the lore?
 

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TeeJay

Well-Known Member
You apparently don't get where it's not capitalized. I reference it in case you think you are one. You seem to think you know all.. isn't that the lore?
I did notice you didn't capitalize it. I don't believe in a God, but I do respect other people enough to capitalize it.

I do not think I am a God nor have I represented myself as one. I also don't think I know it all. I will always be a student. I have simply stated my opinion along with actual facts and personal knowledge; education and work experience.

You responded to me and I responded back. I'm not sorry you are butthurt over me not agreeing with you. If you haven't noticed there is a conversation occurring, within this thread, in which not all opinions are the same.

Am I not allowed to be passionate in my beliefs that are supported through scientific evidence?

It's kind of ridiculous to be clogging up this thread with this BS don't you think? You don't agree with me. So be it. I don't care if you don't agree with my posts. It doesn't mean I can't have an adult conversation with you, though.


UPDATE:

Experts would never say "hopes for life are futile" regarding a dead person.



Jahi McMath is brain dead; hopes for life are futile, experts say

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-jahi-mcmath-case-misconceptions-20131230,0,6291462.story#ixzz2ozucLpMA


With the clock winding down on a court order keeping 13-year-old Jahi McMath on a ventilator, medical ethicists say the public drama over the brain-dead girl has fueled a misconception that her condition is somehow treatable.

Multiple doctors, including a Stanford neurologist, have concluded that Jahi is brain-dead....


Arthur Caplan, director of the Division of Medical Ethics at NYU Langone Medical Center, told CNN last week that the case is "giving the impression that dead people can come back to life."


"To be blunt, Children's is merely preserving Ms. McMath's body from the natural post-mortem course of events," attorneys said. "There is no legal, ethical or moral requirement that it continue to do so or that the family consent in the decision to stop doing so."
 

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Dakota

FORUM BITCH / Beloved Cunt
Bold Member!
As the clock ticks toward a 5 p.m. deadline for Oakland to remove a 13-year-old girl deemed brain-dead from a ventilator, experts in medical and legal ethics say there are no “gray areas” in the case and it should never have gotten this far.

Furthermore, they warn, if the family of Jahi McMath were to find a facility to accept her, the hospital would set a troubling precedent if physicians there were to surgically insert breathing and feeding tubes into the young girl as her distraught relatives have requested.

“I think they have to be adamant that they will not begin any new technology on a corpse,” said Arthur Caplan, director of the Division of Medical Ethics at NYU Langone Medical Center. “If they don’t, I think it’s disrespectful to the dead in a fundamental way, and it opens the floodgates for other people to say, ‘Oh, you don’t really know when we’re dead, do you? So please make more efforts for my loved ones.’ ”

There has been broad consensus for decades that “irreversible cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brainstem” constitutes one of two legal definitions of death. (The other is “irreversible cessation of circulatory and respiratory functions.”)
[...]

Although, in most cases, death comes when the heart and lungs stop working, in others — like Jahi’s — death comes with the cessation of all brain activity, but a ventilator can provide apparent signs of life.

“A beating heart, warm skin, and minimal, if any, signs of bodily decay — are a sort of mask that hides from plain sight the fact that the biological organism has ceased to function as such,” says the December 2008 white paper by the President’s Council on Bioethics.

Rebecca S. Dresser, professor of law and ethics in medicine at Washington University in St. Louis, served on the council.

“As long as the medical consensus is that the patient meets the standards of whole brain death, then that patient is legally dead and there’s no obligation to treat a dead body,” Dresser said.
[...]

Dresser called it “completely understandable that given the circumstances of her brain injury that there would be suspicion about the hospital attempting a coverup” and that “certainly delaying for some period in order to verify that the patient meets the standards of whole brain death or legal death” was warranted. But “whole brain death is death. It’s not a different state from other kinds of death. That’s the consensus view.”

The advent of mechanical ventilators complicated the understanding of death, and Dresser said there have been cases where people who are legally dead have been kept alive for some time on a ventilator. None have experienced any resumption of brain function, but there have been cases where pregnant women deemed legally dead were kept on a ventilator until a live birth of the unborn child was possible.

"We wish to acknowledge that Jahi's case, and our stance regarding her right to life, and her mother's right to make decisions regarding her child, has stirred a vibrant, sometimes polarizing, national debate. This was never our intention," the family said in a recent statement. "We have our strong religious convictions and set of beliefs and we believe that, in this country, a parent has the right to make decisions concerning the existence of their child: not a doctor who looks only at lines on a paper, or reads the cold black and white words on a law that says 'brain dead' and definitely not a doctor who runs the facility that caused the brain death in the first place."

Caplan, however, said whatever debate has been spurred has stemmed from misunderstanding. Some coverage has referenced the high-profile case of Terri Schiavo in Florida. However, Schiavo was in a permanent vegetative state, and was showing brain activity. She had not experienced whole brain death. Furthermore, coverage of seemingly miraculous cases where people “wake up” from lengthy comas can also mislead.

“Those are all cases where someone has woken up from a coma, but all 'coma' means is 'unconscious with the capacity to wake up,' ” he said. “They have brain activity.”

Caplan said he is sympathetic to the family and has seen many families struggle to accept brain death. The terminology can also spur hope, he said, opening the doors for the belief that brain death “means kind of dead or sort of dead or almost dead.”

“The terminology and the desire of the hospital to be kind and supportive created a kind of delusion on the part of the family,” he said. “It’s out of that swamp that they got into the courtroom. Heading to court was where this really began to go off the rails.”

Children’s Hospital Oakland has brought in crisis public-relations expert Sam Singer to handle the issue. He declined to tell reporters what the hospital would do at 5 p.m.

“The court has said at 5 p.m. today that the hospital will be allowed to unplug the ventilator, which is the only thing that is keeping Jahi McMath's heart beating,” he said. “There are no winners in this very tragic case.”
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-case-20131230,0,4012633.story#axzz2oomjSzzG
 

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Teleute

Justice Democrat
Bold Member!
I wonder if they have applied for any permits. I doubt they have. They probably haven't checked the laws regarding transporting a dead body.
No, I think they have, which is why Mom was careful to call the nursing facility a "hospital" on GoFundMe. It would also explain why they haven't bothered to contacting the coroner's office; even with a permit, without the hospital's cooperation, the body would need to be embalmed prior to being moved.

The lawyer is supposedly working for free and will not represent them in any lawsuits. I read that somewhere.
According to whom though? I don't believe that. I don't think Mom has any expectation of moving the body, and perhaps she never really has; she's just out to make things as difficult as possible for the hospital while scoring pity points with the general press. I think Mom and/or the attorney are playing to sue for emotional distress along in addition to the inevitable malpractice suit.
 

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Dakota

FORUM BITCH / Beloved Cunt
Bold Member!
Extension is until 5 p.m. on Jan. 7, 2014:
An Alameda County judge extended an order keeping Jahi McMath on a ventilator Monday afternoon, forcing officials at Children's Hospital Oakland to keep the brain-dead 13-year-old girl on breathing support as an emotional battle over the girl's fate continued.
[...]

"The family has located a licensed facility in the state of New York which has agreed to take Jahi," Jahi's uncle, Omari Sealey, said Monday afternoon, only about an hour before an Alameda County judge's order keeping the girl on a ventilator was set to expire. "We have contracted with an air ambulance willing to take her from door to door. We have a doctor here in California who will be with her throughout the transfer."

Sealey said that despite those arrangements, Children's Hospital will not "allow us to proceed in that manner." So the family, he said, is filing a new complaint in federal court in San Francisco, a complaint the First Court of Appeals confirmed receiving.

Around 4:15 p.m. Monday, family attorney Christopher Dolan announced via Twitter that Alameda County Superior Court Judge Evelio Grillo had agreed to extend his temporary restraining order forbidding the hospital from taking Jahi off her ventilator.

That restraining order was to expire at 5 p.m. Monday. Dolan said that the order had been extended, but it was unclear when the new order would expire.

Sealey said Jahi has been responsive to her mother's voice.

"Jahi is moving when her mother speaks," he said. "We have video our attorneys have just produced it to the hospital's attorney. We have a pediatrician who has seen Jahi who has sworn that she is not dead. We are hopeful that one of these (legal) actions will forestall the hospital's rush to extinguish Jahi's chance at life."
[...]

Earlier, Sam Singer, a spokesman for Children's Hospital Oakland, said it was the hospital's understanding, based on media reports, that two California facilities and the New York hospital have backed out on the family. The New York facility has not contacted Children's Hospital to arrange a transfer, Singer said earlier in the day.

Jahi's family and their attorney have not confirmed those reports, but they continue to cling to optimism that appears at odds with medical expertise. On Monday afternoon, Jahi's grandmother, Sandra Chatman, told reporters that her granddaughter was responding to sounds and touch.

"I know we're going to have victory today," said Chatman. "She's moving her body. Her vital signs are good."
[...]

Dr. Paul Graham Fisher, a court-appointed pediatric neurologist from Lucile Packard Children's Hospital, arrived at that conclusion last week. On Monday, television station NBC 11 obtained and posted the "Treatment and Progress Record" Fisher submitted to Children's Hospital.

In handwritten notes, Fisher observed in Jahi, "electrocerebral silence," "no blood flow to brain," and "no response to pain in extremities ... or trunk." His conclusion: "Child meets all criteria for brain death."
[...]

A spokesman with the Alameda County Coroner's Office on Monday said the office had agreed to allow her body to be moved to another facility.

"If they can find a facility I will not be opposed to that," said Lt. Rick Bowers, who oversees the office.
http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_24815773/jahi-mcmath-oakland-brain-dead-girl-could-be
 

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